Routine

Het is weer een beetje stiller in huis. Dominic is weer naar huis. Gisteren heb ik hem naar het vliegtuig gebracht . Normaal doen we dat altijd samen, Renée en ik . Maar nu moest ik het dus allen doen. Renée is wat minder , dus maar even rustig aan doen .
Het is allemaal goed gegaan, en hij is weer veilig thuis. Nu heeft hij nog een een goede week vrij en dan begint de school weer .
Toen ik thuis kwam dus even de slaapkamer opgeruimd, bed afgehaald en dat soort dingen . Je bet toch altijd wel even bezig om het weer terug te brengen in zijn gewone staat he. Niet dat hij veel rommel had gemaakt of zo hoor. Totaal geen problemen gehad met hem. Ook het eten ging een stuk beter dan vorig jaar .  En we hebben toch ook wat gelopen. Hoop dat hij het zelf een leuke vakantie vond.
Goed, nu gaan we weer proberen terug in onze routine te komen. En dat zal wel lukken hoor . Ook het eten , waar we altijd heel strikt in zijn, gaan we nu weer streng handhaven. Renée is erg gevoelig voor veranderingen . Maar dat gaat wel weer goed komen. 
Straks maar even boodschappen doen , en dan weer op het land werken. Nu eerst maar even ontbijten en dan de wasmachine aanzetten . Terug in het gareel. Voor nu, blijf veilig en gezond .

Op weg naar huis 

Laatste dag

 Het vertrek is daar , de vakantie is over . Ben wat eerder , moet straks naar het vliegveld. Normaal doet Renée dan het papierwerk , maar nu moet ik het dus doen. Ze blijft thuis . Het is wat het is . 
Gisteren een rustige dag gehad. Renée is dus niet zo lekker , en ze heeft veel gerust .  Als we straks weer in onze routine zitten en weer eten zo als we moeten , dan zal het wel weer goed komen. Niet dat we erg ver van onze routine af zijn geweken , maar toch. 
Maar goed , niet lang vandaag , ga even ontbijten, ben al met Casper wezen lopen . Straks Dominic roepen en dan klaar maken om weg te gaan. 
Voor nu, blijf veilig en gezond 

Kabelbaan

Ben ik weer . Gisteren met Dominic naar Funchal geweest . Hij wou graag met de kabelbaan naar Monte en terug. Er is voor hem niet te veel te doen in Monte , maar wou gewoon Funchal zien vanuit de kabelbaan. En dus samen even de kabelbaan genomen. Is niets voor Renée . Zelf zou ik het ook niet doen , te veel toeristen . Maar goed, we waren natuurlijk mooi op tijd , en hadden de kaartjes al online geregeld. Was wel zo handig . We waren dus als eerste in de gondel. Kunnen zes man in , en we zaten vol.
Op zich was het wel leuk, heb het jaren geleden wel eens gedaan , maar toen kende ik Funchal nog niet zo als ik het nu ken. Dus kon veel plekken aanwijzen .
Er zat ook een Belgisch koppel in de gondel en die konden we dus ook nog wel wat vertellen. 
Toen we boven waren even een klein rondje gelopen en toen we naar beneden . We hadden de gondel nu voor ons nu alleen Het is een mooi uitzicht , helder weer . Na twintig minuten waren we weer beneden . Moet zeggen dat Dominic goed kan lopen , we waren vrij snel weer bij de auto . Hij volgend mij goed door de straatjes en ik hoefde niet rustig aan te doen. Wie mij kent en weet hoe ik door Funchal loop ..
Goed , toen we thuis waren bleek dat Renée  zich wat minder voelde , ze is vroeg naar bed gegaan an nu maar zien hoe het vandaag gaat . Laten we hopen dat ze weer snel 100% is . Ga nu ontbijten , straks nog even met Casper lopen en dan even wat boodschapjes doen . Voor nu, blijf veilig en gezond .

Opa en kleinzoon 

 

Gelopen

Ja , gisteren weer gelopen. We moesten natuurlijk wel weer even goed overleggen waar we zouden lopen. Hebben een paar vaste routes die we lopen als het slecht weer is , of als er branden zijn ( geweest ). En dus gisteren weer 11km gelopen. Was wel weer even lekker . En daar hadden we dus ook geen last van de brand . We hebben ook gelijk een plan gemaakt voor de komende weken, want dat gedeelte , 5000 hectare , zijn verbrand en daar in de buurt hoef je dus niet te komen. 
Je ziet ook in de kranten allerlei verhalen , wie deed het goed, wie deed het fout tijdens deze branden , en hoe nu verder . Wat als de regen komt ? Er zijn groepen die de gevaren in zien , er zijn mensen die het allemaal maar niks vinden . Maar er zijn gebieden waar ik de komende periode , zeker als het regent of vlak na regen , zeker niet kom. Maar wie ben ik. 
Vandaag ga ik met Dominic naar Funchal . Als alles goed gaat gaan we met de kabelbaan naar Monte en dan weer terug . Een beetje rondlopen in Monte . Hij wil met de kabelbaan . Dus dan doen we . De vakantie zit er bijna op, nog een dag of wat en dan moeten we naar het vliegveld. 
Maar goed, ga ontbijten en dan klaar maken om naar Funchal te gaan . Voor nu, blijf veilig en gezond .

  

Even wat vijgen plukken 

Een flinke stier langs de levada 

Een stuk rustiger

Gelukkig , het is een stuk rustiger . Het ergste is achter de rug , wat de branden betreft . Er zijn hier en daar nog wat smeulende plekken , die men in de gaten houd. Ook gisteren moest de heli weer even in actie komen. De vliegtuigen zijn weer terug naar Spanje , zij hebben hun werk gedaan . Gisteren heeft het zelfs geregend aan de noordkant , dus dat is fijn. 
Nu wordt het uitkijken als het hard regent . Veel plekken zullen nu nog gevaarlijke worden dan ze al waren . Er zijn geen bomen of struiken meer die alles vast houden he . Dus een landslide hier en daar zullen nu nog vaker voor komen. Die hebben we zelfs zonder de branden . Zo als afgelopen vrijdag in Faial . Op een plek waar ik nog niet zo lang geleden ook ben geweest . Een Spaanse toerist van 21 jaar , die daar met haar ouder liep , is dodelijk getroffen door een landslide . Het eiland is zeer mooi , maar ook gevaarlijk.
Vanaf nu gaan ze weer veel tegen elkaar te keer hoe het heeft kunnen gebeuren en hoe de reactie was op de brand. Hebben ze wel snel genoeg de ernst van de brand in gezien , hebben ze wel snel genoeg hulp gevraag ? Je kent het wel. Zal mijn idee daar over maar voor me houden , een brand in de bergen is erg moeilijk te bestrijden , dat is zeker .
Okay , nu gaan we  weer proberen om terug te gaan in onze routine . São is weer terug op het eiland , het is maandag , dus ik ga zien of we een eindje kunnen lopen. Het is nog wel warm, er zijn hele stukken waar we voorlopig niet naar toe gaan , maar we gaan het toch weer doen. Nu even ontbijten , dan mijn rugzak weer verder inpakken en dan op weg . Voor nu, blijf veilig en gezond. 

Gevlogen

 Zo , zijn we weer . Eerst maar even over de brand . Er is nog steeds brand op twee plaatsen. Zo wel in de buurt van Pico Ruivo en hier wat dichterbij , Ponta da Sol , Lambada. Maar ook daar wat hoger en niet in de buurt van huizen.
De twee blusvliegtuigen hebben al een paar vluchten gemaakt en de heli heeft gisteren 35 keer een lading water geloosd . De vliegtuigen kunnen natuurlijk veel meer water laden , maar zijn niet goed in de buurt van huizen.
De blusvliegtuigen moeten wel elke keer naar Porto Santo , ongeveer 30km hier vandaan , om water te tanken. Ze willen zeker geen zoutwater gebruiken. We hebben hier hele speciale natuur, en de verwoesting door het vuur is al erg genoeg . Als er nu ook nog eens zout water bij zou komen....
We zullen vandaag zien hoe het gaat . Het is aan deze kant van het eiland nog steeds best warm . Maar wat de wind vandaag gaat doen , zal ook een grote rol spelen. Laten we hopen dat het vandaag een heel stuk beter gaat. 
Gisteren samen met Dominic een stuk gereden . We hebben onderweg , wel niet ik maar Dominic , een video gemaakt . De eerste video is vanaf São Vicente naar de tunnel , richting Ribeira Brava . De tweede video is als we uit de tunnel komen, bij Serra da Aqua , waar de brand is begonnen . Daar kun je goed de schade zien. 
Maar het is niet alleen niet de schade nu . Als het straks gaat regenen , stormen . Zonder de begroeien op de bergwanden , moet er niet aan denken. Er zullen weer de nodige stenen vallen, landslide´s ,noem maar op. 
Maar goed, ga ontbijten en zien wat we vandaag gaan doen. Mocht het dit weekend nodig zijn , dan post ik nog wel wat . Maar als het ´rustig ´ blijft dan doen we lekker niets . Voor nu , blijf gezond .

  

Er is hulp op komst

 Er komt extra hulp . 

Vandaag komen er twee van deze Canadair aan . Spanje komt ons helpen. De brand is er nog steeds , maar nu is hij nog slechter bereikbaar. Ook niet meer zo dicht bij ons in de buurt . 
Het is allemaal een hoop gelul , we zijn fout is het , wie wou geen hulp in roepen en al dat soort dinge, Vakantietijd en sommige vinden dat belangrijker dan Madeira , ook al ben je de President van dit mooie eiland. Maar wie ben ik. Hoop dat het met deze twee vliegtuigen zeer snel onder controle is.
Had zelf een slecht begin van de dag . Kwam om even voor vijf uur naar beneden lopen, vloog er een klein motje in  mijn oor. Hel vervelend. Moest dus naar de eerste hulp , en daar hadden ze hem er gelukkig snel uit . Mijn hoofd , je weet het he. 
Goed , nu ontbijten , denk met Dominic op weg en zien wat de dag ons brengt 

Verplaatst

Het eiland brand nog steeds . Nu al is er 4392 hectare vergrand . Het is nu bij de Pico Ruivo . In de buurt valt het nu mee , maar er kan zo snel iets veranderen.
Er zijn een hoop vluchten vertraagt en sommige mensen zitten al dagen vast op het vliegveld. Gisteren moest de politie er heen om de mensen ,die nu zelfs in opstaan kwamen , tot rust te brengen . Ryanair moest het ongelden. Er landen wat vluchten , maar geen Ryanair ´kon ´ niet landen . Dus dat was niet best .
Ben nog wel vroeg opgestaan , maar als het zo blijft aan deze kant van het eiland, slaapik morgen weer een uurtje langer . 
We bleven zo veel mogelijk thuis , wil niet te ver weg gaan he . Maar vandaag gaan Renée en Dominic waarschijnlijk even naar Funchal . We beslissen alles op het laatste moment , want je weet het nooit . Natuurlijk monitor ik zoveel mogelijk hoe en wat . Maar je moet goed uitkijken wat waar is . 
Ook is er veel gedoe hoe men het moet doen. Moeten er meer heli´s komen, ander soort heli´s ? Wie ben ik om daar een mening over te hebben . Weet wel dat er een hoop mensen bezig zijn , zowel met het bestrijden van de brand als met de brandweer van water en eten te voorzien. Dat is een grote groep vrijwilligers . Hoop dat het nu snel over is .  Voor nu , blijf veilig en gezond 

Vliegveld Madeira 

Pico Ruivo 

17 augustus 

21 augustus 

Wat vroeg

Ben net al gisteren wat eerder opgestaan. Ben toch meestal vroeg , dus waarom niet. Hier is het redelijk rustig . Het huis en alles er om heen zit onder het as. Heeft ook echt nog geen zin om het op te ruimen . Het brand nog steeds . Wij mogen niet klagen , komt hier niet dichterbij . Het is gistermiddag wel weer opgelaaid in  Curral das Freiras . En het trekt ook van Ponta da Sol naar Canhas . Wij zitten daar eigen tussen in . Maar het is dus niet hier . We zijn de rook , maar zien geen vuur. 
We hebben het , ook hier , wel meegemaakt dat de hele bergtop in de brand stond en je het vuur ook hoorde . Voor ons is het dus niet zo erg , maar andere mensen hebben het dus wel slecht en slapen helemaal niet . 
Er zijn gistermiddag ook weer mensen geëvacueerd uit een plaatsje dat heet Furna , dat is hemels breed hier nog geen 2 km vandaan. Maar er ligt nog een berg rug tussen , dus het komt niet zo maar hier heen, zolang de weersomstandigheden ons gunstig gezind zijn. We kunnen niet anders doen dat alles goed in de gaten houden en waakzaam zijn . Als de omstandigheden het erger maken , staan we klaar om weg te gaan. Hebben dat eerder mee gemaakt . Ga even wat lezen en dan rustig ontbijten . Voor nu, blijf gezond.

Curral das Freias 

  

Nog een keer

Zo, we zijn een paar uur verder . Nog steeds is het hier rustig en veilig. Het is nog steeds koel . In huis is het ook een aangename temperatuur. De branden, die zijn natuurlijk nog niet over . En dat zal ook nog wel even duren.
Er zijn nu extra mensen van het vaste lang en van de Azoren . En dat die groepen konden landen is op zich al een prestatie. Gisteren zijn er heel veel vluchten gecanceld , en omgeleid. Het vleiveld is een grote slaapplaats 

Madeira Airport

Dus ook daar is het niet fijn. Veel wegen zijn afgesloten. Wandelroutes ,natuurlijk , gesloten. En nu afwachten hoe het vandaag gaat . Wat doet de wind ? De temperatuur zal iets omlaag gaan. Zal het genoeg zijn ? De levada´s bij de Ribeira do Ponta de Sol zijn gesloten. Dus ik loop straks maar een beetje hier in de buurt . Casper vind het toch maar niks , de lucht. Veel as overal . Zware lucht. We hebben het eerder mee gemaakt . 
Madeira is een mooi eiland , en ook nu zal het weer over gaan . De natuur hersteld zich weer . Duurt een tijd, er zal veel schade zijn. Maar , het goede komt altijd weer terug. Ga ontbijten . Voor nu, blijf gezond .

  

Waakzaam

 Even een kort stukje . Straks volgt er wel meer . Net 02:00 en ben al weer op. Heb wel even geslapen, maar probeer alles toch een beetje in de gaten te houden en te zien hoe het gaat , Ziet er niet mooi uit. 
Hebben wel vaker brand mee gemaakt , maar alles bij elkaar is dit ook weer een lelijke . Zal er een klein kaartje bij doen 

Het blauwe puntje is waar wij zijn . De afstand tot de dichtbij zijnde hot spot is 1 km. Maar zie nog geen vlammen . Hebben het vuur wel eens dichterbij gehad. Maar elke brand is anders . Blijf nu op. Kan niet meer naar Ponta do Sol , de Ribeira daar . Zal vandaag proberen regelmatig iets te posten . Maar we zijn veilig en kunnen er nog steeds uit. Voor nu, blijf gezond .  

Wordt warmer

 Ja , het wordt warmer , dit weekend wordt het 30+gr . Hoop dat ze er naast zitten , maar je moet er wel op voorbereid zijn. Maar goed, we gaan het zien.
Vandaag is de bedoeling om wat te gaan wandelen met Dominic en Casper . Maar hoe en wat zal afhangen hoe het gaat met de temperatuur. Moet natuurlijk wel safe zijn he . 
Ben al lekker bezig geweest , de wasmachine draait , heb hier en daar zo al wat gedaan. En nu dus even een klein stukje .
Dominic heeft het best naar zijn zin. Hij  is gisteren met Renée naar Funchal geweest . Ze hebben wat dingen gekocht bij Decatlon . En ik ben in de tuin beneden geweest . Ook vandaag probeer ik mezelf weer een beetje in tweeën te delen . Beetje op het land en wat met Dominic .
Goed , ik ga ophouden , zal wat foto´s plaatsen . Ontbijten en dan begint mijn dag weer . Voor nu, blijf gezond .

Dominic aan het eten 

 

Dominic aan het afdalen 

Hij wordt nat 

Gaat lekker

Gisteren is Dominic wezen canyoning . Waren al vroeg op pad, het was even boven Monte . Natuurlijk waren we op tijd . Het was toen nog wat fris , maar al snel werd het warm. Het was een groep van een man of 12 . En twee instructeurs . Ze kregen eerst een  uitleg en ze moesten zich omkleden en wat uitrusting omhangen. Helm op . En toen in twee busjes en op weg . Het was niet ver weg , en toen moesten ze een stukje lopen en kwamen ze bij de plek waar ze het gingen doen. Ik ben niet mee gegaan , ik ben in de buurt van de auto wat gaan lopen .
Goed , na een paar uurtjes kwamen ze lopend terug . En men kleden ze weer om. Toen hij in de auto was en we op weg terug waren , vertelde hij hoe het was. Hij vond het erg leuk, wil het zeker nog wel eens doen . Maar hij is niet een goed zwemmer en hij vind zelf dat hij nu zich eerst moet concentreren op goed te leren zwemmen . 
Dus nu gaan we wat anderen dingen doen . Eerst gaan we weer lopen. Zijn conditie is niet slecht , maar het is warm en je moet toch leren hoe het is om een beetje omhoog te lopen . En dan natuurlijk weer naar beneden . En we hebben hier een cart-baan en dat lijkt hem ook wel wat . Dus we hebben zat te doen.
Vandaag komt Kate , dus ik heb weer wat te doen. Ga nu ontbijten en dan kijken wat de dag ons brengt . Voor nu, blijf gezond .

    

Gelopen

Dinsdag , we gaan er weer voor . Vandaag gaat Dominic Canyoningen . Moeten redelijk vroeg op pad, maar dat is niet erg.
Gisteren eerst wezen lopen met Casper en Dominic, we zijn naar Ribeira da Ponta do Sol geweest . Nu niet langs de ribeira gelopen , maar expres een pad omhoog . En dat is redelijk stijl. Ook best lastig met allemaal losse steentje en los zand. Omhoog is zwaar voor je hart , bloeddruk gaat omhoog en dat merk je echt wel. Maar naar beneden is ook weer zwaar , dan weer voor je knieën. En je moet constant opletten dat je niet uitglijd en zo . Maar hij deed het erg goed, luisterde naar advies en klaagde geen moment omdat het lang duurde of zwaar was. Erg goed dus .
Toen we thuis kwamen wat in en rond het huis gedaan. Natuurlijk ook de kippen verzorgd . Om vier uur kwamen Frenk en Helen even langs . Ben met Helen even naar de levada gelopen om haar te laten zien hoe dat nu was . Frenk blijf kletsen met Renée . We hebben daar naar lekker Mexicaans gegeten . Was erg gezellig . Lekker wat bij gekletst . Toen ze weg waren even de keuken op geruimd en nu zo even ontbijten. Dan op weg met Dominic . Vakantie tijd is altijd wat drukker , maar hoort er bij . Voor nu, blijf gezond .

     

Lopen met Dominic

Lopen met Dominic 

Maandag

 Zo , het is maandag . Gisteren naar Santo da Serra geweest . Samen met Dominic , en daar waren  Frenk en Helen ook . Hebben even over de markt gelopen en daarna zijn we naar Portela geweest . Het was jammer genoeg wat mistig , dus daar was niet veel van de mooie omgeving te zien .  We zijn van daar naar een koffie gereden en daar even een bakkie gedaan. Ik ben van daar met Dominic weer naar huis gegaan en Frenk en Helen zijn nog wat rond gaan rijden.
In de middag heb ik nog even stukje gelopen met Dominic . Ben hem een beetje aan het trainen . Is natuurlijk een groot verschil om hier te lopen dan in Nederland. Hij is nu wat meer aan het omhoog lopen . Morgen gaat hij canyoning , dus hij moet wel een stukje kunnen lopen . Maar het gaat de goede kant op . Straks gaan we in Ponta do Sol weer een stuk lopen , en dan wat steiler dan tot nu toe . Kijken hoe dat gaat . Maar ik heb het al eerder aan gegeven, als je ophoog gaat , moet je ook omlaag . 
Goed, nu even ontbijten. Dan de krant lezen en dan lopen met Casper en Dominic . Voor nu , blijf gezond .

Opa en Dominic 

 

Helen , Dominic en Frenk 

test

 

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they are being taught that Britain is bad because of its Colonial history

0:05

because of slavery that Britain is racist if that's what they're learning all of the time ethnic minority kids

0:12

grow up very angry and resentful of their country and the white kids will come out feeling deeply uncomfortable

0:19

and very guilty about their country and about their white skin and what are the solutions to that well this is it it it

0:28

is complex isn't it no when I say this people get angry can you tell me why that's offensive to people and that is

0:35

where the the phrase diversity is our strength is hugely problematic the

0:41

biggest threat to the country is what is being taught in schools you have

0:47

absolutely no idea what your child is doing all day in school so I think Elon

0:53

Musk is wrong when it comes to kids when it comes to schools what is he wrong he

0:58

thinks that it it's so frightening all of this

1:03

discussion on what Kamala is is she Asian is she black who the hell cares if we can't as a nation articulate what

1:11

those things are what what hope do we have of dealing with what we're seeing on the society level which is horrific

1:18

things are going to get worse and [Music]

1:24

worse hello and welcome to the Winston Marshall show with me Winston Marshall I sat down with Katherine BBL Singh the

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head teacher and founder of the Michaela Community School in Northwest London the

1:36

reason I wanted to talk to her is because England which is having suffering a great deal at the moment

1:43

coming out the back of what happened in Southport and the following riots we

1:49

wanted to look at multiculturalism something that she'd been talking about but also something

1:54

that she has been doing with her schools now for over 10 years how to bring

2:01

together different communities a multicultural Community into one common culture I think this might be the most

2:07

important question facing our country today and so we went deep into that what she's doing at the school itself but

2:15

also a look at the country uh politically but also different communities looking into education all

2:22

aspects really what it is to be British what it is that unifies us it was an important conversation and one that I

2:29

think will take a lot away from before you hear from Catherine if you want to support the show all you have to do is

2:34

press subscribe if you do that we can explore more difficult important topics like this one and I can invite more

2:40

phenomenal guests like Katherine onto the show but without further Ado

2:46

Katherine bubling thank you for coming in the question I want to get to

The Challenges of Multiculturalism in Britain

2:51

eventually is what is it that is the common culture for Britain yeah you've

2:58

talked about managing Ing multiculturalism and I think you've used the language common culture is something

3:05

that is to unify us the reason why I think this is so important well firstly I think this might be the most important

3:10

question facing our country we're told every day diversity is our greatest strength I have to believe Unity is our

3:16

greatest strength not against diversity but without Unity what good is it yeah I think you with your schools with the

3:22

Michaela Community School you're actively doing it unlike all these other people on Twitter as we discussed you're

3:28

putting your money away your mouth is you're and your issu who to ask but there's

3:34

aext if for our listeners I I'll paint a little bit if you don't mind which is

3:40

the it's been our country is ruling it's been a horri horrible month which has

3:46

ended with the murder of the three girls in uh in Southport Elise dot

3:51

stanum Alice DVA agua and BB King

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and that's then inspired a bunch of protests before that we had very

4:04

shocking scenes also as well as the recent ones in in har Paul and White

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Hall and of course South but before that we had hair Hills we had Rochdale it seems that the country is there's

4:17

rioting happening along tribal lines along sectarian lines exactly and I I

4:24

don't remember our country ever being like this and so before getting to the big question about what unites us I

4:31

thought it might be worth exploring and maybe coming to maybe we'll agree maybe we won't agree about what the problems

4:37

are right now facing Britain and what the root causes of those problems are

4:43

forgive me this is a broad question but what we've seen in the last month well

4:48

actually I should say you've I've seen you do media and you have used the you've concentrated to talking about

4:54

managing multiculturalism implicit there is that you think that there are some downsides to multiculturalism and that

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that related to what we've seen this month have I understood that correctly well I don't I wouldn't say that there are downsides necessarily it's just that

5:06

it needs to be managed carefully so

5:12

look uh I am the daughter of um uh my

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Jamaican mother and my indog Guyanese father I am uh the product of

5:24

multiculturalism um but it doesn't come without its difficulties um when I was

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about 15 years old I discovered that I had four cousins these boys who were my

5:36

brother's his brother's uh children um I had never met them um because uh for all

5:43

those years um his brother had had not spoken to my father because uh he had

5:49

married my mother um it it there are difficulties when it comes to managing

5:55

multiculturalism and um that's because uh sometimes people can come with

6:00

prejudices so I think that that that is a real uh issue you know people on the left I think when they accuse me think

6:07

that I don't understand that I do get that but um I think it is also the case that

6:15

different cultures come with different expectations and uh different demands

6:20

and sometimes those demands Clash so as an example um at our school uh Muslims

Prioritising Community Needs in a Multicultural School

6:28

for instance eat meat but no pork Hindus eat meat but no beef um uh Muslims would

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like to eat halal meat Jews would like to eat kosher um uh siks cannot eat any

6:44

type of meat that has been treated in a different kind of way so what do you do right well I tell you what we did we

6:51

went vegetarian um and India did the same thing they've got all these different cultures well you know what

6:57

we're going to do we're going to go vegetarian now I've had criticism from the right on that because their position

7:03

is well you shouldn't Bend at all uh now I'm not saying everyone on the right thinks that some people in the right

7:09

would say that I should just be serving normal food and that either people get

7:15

with it or they don't um now why is it an issue for us because we have family lunch this is what we call it and we all

7:22

eat the same food so there isn't any choice now you might want to get round it by just giving out a variety of

7:28

different choice but it becomes complicated you know kosher Halal the

7:33

kitchen is different you can't use the same utensils you know etc etc so there

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are logistical things when it comes to running institutions like hospitals and schools and so on uh that get in the way

7:46

uh this idea that I think uh some progressives have which is that well

7:51

multiculturalism is wonderful just throw everybody in a big pot and let's get to it it's all fine they don't recognize

7:58

that some desires and demands clash and

8:03

then you need some way of dealing with the Clash uh some way of of

8:09

prioritizing and what we do at Michaela is that we

8:14

prioritize um the success of the whole Community above the desires of any

8:21

individual group or any individual person MH um so uh something that has

8:26

nothing to do with multiculturalism uh for instance is uh our silent corridors

8:32

uh people say to me why do you need silent corridors I mean they're not entirely silent we say good morning good afternoon but that's it we don't have

8:38

conversations people think it's Draconian I why am I obsessed with this

8:43

idea of having silent corridors well because I spent all my life working in the inner city and seeing what the

8:49

corridors at inner city schools look like which is kids getting be beaten up uh bullying their heads being smashed

8:56

into the walls and all sorts now um it's true that there are some kids who

9:02

you could have perhaps your you're better behaved kids you're you know because you have naughty kids and then you have kids who are who are who are

9:08

who are nicer let's say if you have a very selective environment you might not need silent

9:14

corridors um if it's not selective well some of those kids it's true are having

9:20

to be silent when they do they would be able to get along fine without being

9:26

silent but they make that sacrifice for the betterment of the whole so all of

9:32

our children and all of our families are told I explain all of this before they visit they come to the school they join

9:38

the school and I say look we need to succeed as a team and as a as a whole

9:45

school and in order to do that you're going to have to make certain sacrifices

9:50

and that that's just the deal that's part of the deal uh you're going to have to eat vegetarian food at lunch doesn't

9:57

mean you have to be vegetarian at home but you do have to be vegetarian at lunch because we can't make it work

10:03

otherwise we can't make family lunch work and I love family lunch because and you will have to come and visit at some

10:09

point um I love it because the kids serve each other food uh they have a a a chat as if you

10:17

might do around the dinner table um they clean up after each other it's very

10:22

different to the Cantine culture of I'm taking what I want to do me and I'm going to eat my food and then I might

10:29

even leave my plate at the end for the cleaners to pick up because well it's not my responsibility and I very much

10:35

want the children not to have that kind of attitude where they look after each other now those principles are more

10:42

important than children being able to eat exactly what they want um

10:48

so that principle of thinking about the success of the whole and prioritizing

10:54

that over everything else and individual desires is what drives us now people

11:01

then say well why are we talking about this one school you know I get that criticism from both the right and the left they say look Katherine you run a

11:08

school what do you know about society and I would say it means I know everything about

11:15

Society because school is a microcosm of society and what works in

11:22

school tells us what could work in society um and not only that but schools

11:31

make Society people you know one of these days I'm going to write a book called why children

11:37

matter because I don't think we understand that children matter um you

11:43

heard me the other day saying this actually um uh both right left doesn't

11:48

matter the whole political Spectrum doesn't understand this everybody's concentrating on the adults and I

11:53

understand why because we're all adults and we see the problems and we say oh my goodness how do we fix this right now

11:59

and you're absolutely right we do need to concentrate on the now however in four or five years time the

12:06

kids at school will be those adults right and if the schools could be a

12:13

lever that we could pull to make it so that we could get on well as adults well

12:18

why wouldn't we want to pull that and if it's the case that the schools are

12:24

actually currently making it so that the kids are less likely to get on and that

12:29

the adults that they will become are less likely to get on and that if the

12:35

things we continue doing and thinking will ensure that multiculturalism really

12:40

will fail don't we want to change that now

12:46

this is what I'm trying to say to people and and and as soon as I start saying multiculturalism needs managing all hell

12:52

breaks loose I mean I get threatened by the Press they start saying they're going to write an expose on the school

12:59

and how it's so terrible and I'm thinking what are you going to write about the school the kids are really happy the parents are really happy the thing is I'm very used to all kinds of

13:06

hit jobs in the media where they come after me because I'm not allowed to say that

13:11

multiculturalism should be managed MH and I'm trying to ring a big alarm Bell

13:17

here can you can you tell me why that's offensive to people what what's your di why people are offended by you saying we

Does Multiculturalism Need Managing?

13:24

need to manage multiculturalism okay well I suspect that when people hear

13:31

that they think I'm saying it's failed and the reason why it has failed is the

13:36

fault of ethnic minorities and I think that progressives um so so the problem we

13:44

have here is that those leaning to the right will say ethnic minorities aren't doing what they should do uh you know

13:52

participate in society in a way that um we would like them to um uh you know

14:00

I I often hear them say things like you know well there weren't that many black people at some Royal event or there

14:07

weren't that many brown or black people at uh an event that uh had has to do

14:13

with um the country you know participating in loving the country uh it could be a remembrance event or it

14:20

could be um uh anything that is to do with Britain you know and then what they

14:26

say is look if if if if eth minorities aren't going to participate on that kind of level then how on Earth can we all get on with each other uh people on the

14:34

left they'll say the problem is the far right and racism um and if we don't stop

14:42

the racism then uh we're never going to be able to succeed as a country that's

14:48

how they see it um so very much with this Southport situation these are the

14:54

two views I was hearing on on Twitter and the problem is social Med media

14:59

divides everybody so uh the people on the left are only hearing from their people the people on the right are only

15:05

hearing from their people and they literally have no idea what the other one is saying they have no idea and so

15:12

those on the left for instance think I'm crazy and think what I'm saying is so deeply

15:18

misguided um and uh you know that I've

15:24

been radicalized and that um I'm a things they call me they call me a [ __ ] an idiot I'm a useful idiot for the far

15:32

right um because I'm obviously somehow so stupid that I'm just promoting the

15:38

far rights ideals um when I mean obviously I mean this is just crazy I

15:44

mean it's just mad um I've I've worked all my life in the inner city this 25

15:50

years working with brown and black kids uh set up my own School in the inner city precisely to help brown and black

15:56

kids of course there's a handful of white kids in there too um I love children of all colors and and

16:03

and and spend my life working with them to enable social Mobility better than

16:08

any other school in the country so this idea that um I somehow uh uh am helping

16:15

the far right uh is just absurd um and what I'm begging them to listen to me on

16:22

is if it's the case that I'm saying this stuff and I'm not trying to help the far right then what I'm why am I saying it

16:29

why would I put myself in the firing line like this um if if if I don't

16:34

believe that maybe you're doing something wrong and when I say doing

16:39

something wrong look it's not the fault of schools okay I need to say this schools are so difficult to run well um

16:46

it's so difficult to run well in particular in this culture uh that we

16:51

have at at the moment where parents can be very demanding where perhaps headteachers will not get the support of

16:58

the department uh for education or or from the media they're thrown into the Limelight and they're attacked left

17:05

right and Center nobody want most head teachers have a mortgage to pay they want to walk their dog and feed their

17:10

kids you know so if we live in a day and age where head teachers have to put themselves on the line in order to run a

17:17

decent school well and that is the day and age we live in then then we already are in trouble but then you've got to be

Teaching Values and Kindness

17:24

able to see beyond that so people always talk about our school we have great results we do have great

17:31

results I I think it's the least interesting thing about our school and I'm always saying this okay look results

17:37

come out in August our kids will do well I'll say isn't that great we've got you know and it'll be lovely and you know

17:44

they'll they'll get much better results than they would have got elsewhere and that's great forget about the

17:49

results look at who our kids are look at the people we have created okay now we

17:57

get over 800 visitors every year uh over 7,000 people have come to

18:02

visit the school this is not normal schools all over the world nobody gets these kinds of visitors why do we get

18:08

these visitors because through word of mouth and through social media which I think is a Force for good and bad in

18:14

this case good people have heard about us and they come and they cannot believe

18:20

what they're seeing okay these are teachers I've had teachers break down in tears who were visiting who say but how

18:25

is this possible right now A friend of mine works one of the local schools he came and he went round and he he came

18:32

bursting into my office once when he was visiting for the first time and um he's been several times since and uh he said

18:39

Katherine I've been talking to the kids and they all go to the same primary schools as our kids what have you done to them he just couldn't understand how

18:47

come they're so kind and decent how come they're so chatty and articulate how

18:53

come they're so ambitious and driven so there's something that we're doing with them right

19:00

now what are we doing and this all Taps into the multiculturalism idea

19:05

okay um so

19:11

uh people think often when it comes to schools that if you want to fix

19:18

something you need to fix that thing so what I mean is children are unhappy

19:24

let's give them happiness lessons uh children lack self-esteem let's give them self steam lessons Okay that's how

19:30

that's how we tend to think actually what we need to do is

19:37

teach the children in a more traditional fashion the reason why it needs to be more traditional and when I say traditional what I mean is teacher

19:43

standing at the front of the class leading the learning Being the adult Authority in the room holding the

19:48

children to account teaching them both knowledge and

19:54

values okay now when you do that teach them traditionally and hold to account

20:00

and give them both knowledge and values you build their happiness you build their self-esteem and you give them

20:08

values that will allow them to get on with each other and make sacrifices of

20:14

on their own individual Desires in order to help someone else or perhaps to help

20:20

their whole Community now if you get that balance right and you have that as

20:25

your goal a multicultural community can succeed and so our Multicultural

20:32

community that doesn't sound Multicultural anymore that sounds like a common culture because you you're instilling the same values amongst all

20:38

the kids that's true but and this is this is the issue so at what point do

Common Culture and Navigating Religious Expression in Schools

20:44

you allow difference okay yeah at what point do you allow difference so it's

20:49

funny because Freddy sers who is at unheard and um I uh did a I I I had a

20:56

whole conversation with him for about 40 minutes um after we were taken to court over the uh prayer issue MH and uh we

21:04

talked all about it that was last year no earli this year when you went to the high court because one of your students

21:10

Muslim student wanted to pray and you forbade it yeah exactly well I mean yes

21:16

sort of I mean basically uh they want they wanted a prayer room and we were saying no to this prayer room so

21:24

um and it's funny because I then saw Freddy later on uh at dinner you know

21:30

Weeks Later months later and um and he said well of course Catherine you don't allow anything religious in in in your

21:37

school religion you have to say no to religion at the gates and I said this not

21:42

true I haven't said that and he said well we talked about it for 40 minutes yeah yeah you do say that and I said no

21:48

I don't and I thought isn't this fascinating that he and I have had this discussion and yet that's not what I'm

21:54

saying so so what am I saying and this is my fault cuz I'm obviously not being clear

22:00

enough um what am I saying there are some religious issues that we allow in

22:06

our school I don't know the Muslim girls all wear hijabs we don't have a problem with that seat kids would wear bangal um

22:13

uh there are there are various I don't know Christian kids might have a cross underneath their their shirts I don't

22:19

mind about that well I can think of two from your school straight away which is that you have the national flag which is

22:25

of course a Christian cross in fact if it's the Union flag there's two Christian crosses there's St George

22:30

cross and St Andrew's cross yes but you also sing the national anthem which starts with God Save the King yes yes

22:36

that's true so there is religion yes I suppose so that's a very good point so you see I mean I haven't even thought

22:42

about it you've just said something to me that I haven't thought about now why haven't I thought about it so

22:49

that and that's key MH because what I haven't done is said no to religion at the gates we are a

22:56

secular Community I haven't said that what I've said is we're going to go along to get along

23:04

and if there's something that's going to prevent us from getting along and sharing in our communal spaces and

23:11

enjoying each other's company and being friends across religious and racial

23:17

divides um if anything's going to stop that from happening I'll say no to that

23:23

but I'll say yes to everything else that logistically speaking means that we can

23:28

all get on with each other mhm that that's ultimately it so why are we vegetarian because logistically for

23:35

serving meat would not have allowed us to do our family lunch and our family lunch is very important to us because of

23:40

the values that family lunch teaches and those values are more important than the

23:46

individual Community or religion's Desires in that moment and so we always

23:53

put the team above the individual so it's about finding that balance

23:59

and um okay so that I understand why and why the kids would understand the logic

24:04

there what's the logic how do you explain why they should sing the national anthem and why you would have

24:10

the British flag how do you explain that to a kid okay great question so uh we're

24:17

all British um and I what does it mean to be British yeah it's a good question I mean

24:25

when schools uh talk about British value they'll talk about the rule of law belief in democracy um and which America

24:33

have both off so just as well be American as true that's true but it couldn't be lots of lots of countries so there is a distinction to Britain no but

24:41

that's Western and that's important right that's that's an important distinction because I often think that we we forget that actually uh you know

24:48

we don't push gay people off of buildings that our police aren't corrupt in the way that you will find in so many

24:54

countries around the world so um and and I think if people traveled a bit more saw what other countries were like they

25:00

might realize just how grateful we should be for be being able to live in a country like Britain you know

25:07

um so I mean look uh there are all kinds of uh National characteristics like

25:13

joining the queue and um uh eating beans and toast you know we serve um beans on

25:20

potatoes you know you go to America they think you're a bit odd if you're eating well they don't even know what baked beans are let alone eating them on a

25:27

potato you know and that's one of our standard dishes that we eat so I I I would and that would tie in I would say

25:33

our Cuisine ties into the Traditions aspect of what it is to be a nation I'm quite Keen forgive me here exct and so other

25:40

things they stand for their head mistress at assembly you know that's British schools do that um that wouldn't

25:47

happen in most other Western countries for instance uh that is a tradition and a a ritual as you say that has been

25:54

handed down through the through through the the years um we they stand for their

25:59

head mistress this will be just after they've they've been singing God save the king or um I vow to thee my country

26:06

or Jerusalem those are the three uh pieces of music that we'll do um and and

26:13

then I tell them to sit down and then I give them an assembly uh why do we do that because I am the top of the tree at

26:19

the school and it's about creating a kind of Aura around me I'm sort of The Wizard of Oz you never know what goes on

26:26

in Miss bbal sing's office and there's a real sense of you don't want to get on Miss bble sing's list you know what is

26:32

she going to say or you know heads of year will say what would Miss Bal Singh think of that behavior that kind of

26:37

thing because you're you're creating an aura around me and I have to be very careful when I'm out and about in town

26:42

you know and sometimes there's the Red Man and I think oh I want to cross and I think are there any kids around because

26:48

I can't be seen to doing bad stuff you know IE a sense of hierarchy and

26:54

Authority yes and role modeling you know where they want to be a certain type of

27:00

person which is fantastic M but to my question about what it is to be British you look very close when you say that

27:06

you chose those three anthems yes okay so why would you choose those three anthems because obviously they're not going to sing those in America to use my

27:12

earlier example no because that seems to be closer to the thing our countries they they belong to us and you know what

27:19

that thing of belonging to us you know Roger screw uh who a great philosopher

27:24

and writer as you know uh sadly died recently um um he came to visit us H and

27:32

um he spoke to the children about fox hunting I said oh let you're you're you

27:41

believe in fox hunting I don't believe in fox hunting I said you know all about it come and tell us and persuade us that

27:46

you know fox hunting is the thing to do so he did his best um I'm not sure he convinced any

27:52

of but he did his best now he went around the school and I I genuinely

27:57

think with had real impact on him changed his mind about something which I always feel really proud of because it

28:03

was the great Roger scrutin after all and um I remember him saying to me and he he

28:09

we wrote a book after that and he gave us a quote for the book uh which said

28:15

that um it was a life-changing experience for him seeing the school because he saw brown and black children

28:22

of the inner city being taught British history as if it was theirs m and that

28:28

up until this point he had given up hope that ethnic minorities could ever be

28:34

integrated into society in such a way that we could all get on with each other right and so and and that is key but

28:42

that's different from culturalism no well let me come to that the British

28:48

history those anthems uh British ways of life of eating be big beans and so on

28:55

belong to us too right of course you say of course the thing is is that

29:01

the culture nowadays is such that it encourage us it encourages us all to see

29:07

each other as very different so in schools uh you might celebrate uh

29:14

International Day and everybody brings their flag everybody dresses in their

29:20

dress everybody brings their food right now look if that's done in amongst culture

29:29

which is shared then that's okay but I would argue that things are far more

29:35

divisive than what they should be so when you say that's not Multicultural okay look that's common culture that is

29:42

there is a common culture but there's also a multicultural situation going on because the Muslim Girls cover their

29:48

heads the other girls don't um uh the the the the seeks wear their Bangals the

29:54

other kids don't you know um there are are there are differences that we

30:01

Embrace and that we well we would never have any issue

30:06

with um but as long as those differences don't upset the whole um and but you're

30:13

and but you're absolutely right to say there has to be a common culture right there has to be and that is where the

30:21

the phrase diversity is our strength is hugely problematic um

30:31

what's diversity can be great as long as we are

30:37

managing it properly right that that's the thing and uh we need to um we need

30:46

to recognize this and I'm not you know when I say this

30:51

people get angry but I'm not blaming anybody I'm not saying it's the fault of ethnic minorities I'm not saying it's

30:57

the fault of white people I'm not saying you bloody white people why don't you uh

31:03

be more tolerant I'm not saying you bloody brown and black people why don't I'm not saying that I'm saying that if

31:10

each side and there are many sides because it's not just brown and black people white people with amongst the

31:17

brown and black people you've got the Hindus and Muslims who will fight each other you've got the um sunnis and the

31:25

Shia Muslims who will fight each other you got you got like it's much more complex so multiculturalism isn't just

31:32

ethnic minority and white it's all kinds of cultures look we all love eating sushi

31:38

and eating a curry um and these are important it's it we like it now it may

31:45

be somebody on the right was telling me well we don't need to have that to hell with all that different food we just

31:51

want what we want okay fine but you know what look before black and brown people

31:57

ever came along um uh there were problems with multiculturalism in the country

Rethinking Teaching Of History for Cultural Integration

32:03

Catholics Protestants you know remember I mean like there it is it

32:10

has always and angles and sactions the country was founded exactly where Angles and Saxons came together against the the

32:16

Vikings the the the history of Britain is one of different cultures right just

32:22

because there were no brown and black people or there were very few of them because you know there were a few um uh

32:28

just because there were only you know the black and brown people are not the problem obviously it's it's the the

32:35

issue is how do we make it so that different cultures can can get on with

32:40

each other and um yes so I agree with that so cusine seems to be a bit of a

32:46

red herring to me used from by both sides like left will say like isn't all this cusine great but and then the right

32:53

I don't know what that response necessarily would be but I'm interested in what it isn't it's important because

33:00

I'll tell you why it's important because that's an example of something that we could hang on to and we could still

33:07

share a common culture right it it's about it's not all or nothing but food

33:12

is never a why it's not going to be it's not going to be it doesn't food it might

33:18

provoke some sentiment but it doesn't in the same way that reading the anthems will or knowing our history or or

33:28

the the the kind of stories about our country the myth about our country doesn't provoke the same sort of sentiment as as what do mean provoke the

33:35

same sort of well not provokes the wrong word but evoke rather um I guess what I'm trying to say uh say is that we have

33:43

to to be part of a a nation a country we have a sense of a a commonality and part

33:49

of that commonality is is history and a sh a shared culture and food is one

33:57

aspect ECT of that what I find so interesting about what you've done with the school is that you've managed to

34:02

have all these different not just different races but different religions with drastically different cultures come

34:08

together and you've bound them together and I want to know what it is that thing that's binding them and food is one

34:15

aspect of it yeah yeah and the reason I'm pushing for this pushing on this question is because I want to know what

34:21

lessons we can get from your school apply to the whole society I'm sorry we can't apply the food thing to whole society we're not going to say to

34:27

everyone right we're going to all e the same thing no but what one the lessons we can learn from your school are about

34:34

the the history the the idea of shared history that everyone is everyone is in uh invited to participate in the history

34:42

of this land Roger scrutin you brought up earlier he said what is it to be British his answer was place it's about

34:47

this island it's about about how we're we're commune together in this island and I think I asked this question

34:53

because I think the what I see about our country is that we're falling apart along these different lines what is it

34:59

that we can all get behind and multiculturalism isn't enough because that's not a common culture that's so

35:04

that's why I'm pushing on on those questions that's right but the the reason why it's important to talk about

35:10

the food issue right to come back to it is because what the progressive is

35:16

saying there at that point is saying well this stuff's really good so what's the problem right and the the point is

35:23

that there are some differences that are

35:28

great because they're not upsetting the balance of the whole yeah there are

35:33

others that are problematic when it comes to institutions and so on now then

35:40

there's the additional point which you're saying which is yes but what can we then share together now look history

35:46

for instance is a really good um is a it's a really good uh subject to talk

35:51

about uh the way in which history is taught in our school um so our kids know a lot of

35:59

history they know a lot um you're not going to find other kids elsewhere who

36:04

know more history than our kids now that's because we teach in a traditional fashion we teach we do quizzes every

36:11

week we give lots of homework we have very high standards of behavior etc etc

36:16

um if you don't have that then your kids are not being taught very much they just can't they don't have enough there's not

36:22

enough time in the lessons to learn the the the teaching methods that are being used are not going to allow the children

36:28

to remember this stuff as well as our kids will remember it um the structures

36:34

the the the interruptions and behavior and so on it means they're not learning that much so then what are they learning

36:40

in that short period of time and what are they remembering now if they are too

36:47

often not always it'll depend on the school it'll depend on the classroom it'll depend on the history teacher but

36:52

if too often they are being taught that Britain is bad that Britain was is bad

37:00

because of its Colonial history because of slavery uh that Britain is racist in

37:07

it at its core if that's what they're learning all of the time then ethnic

37:13

minority kids grow up very very angry and resentful of their country because

37:19

this is what they're learning they're not being taught here's the whole of British history and this belongs to you

37:26

and here's some of the good and some of the bad and some of the interesting and let's talk about it and isn't it

37:31

fantastic they're not having that experience which our children are having they're having an experience which is

37:38

teaching them to feel deeply uncomfortable with their country the ethnic minorities will come out feeling

37:43

like they're hated by their country and the white kids will come out feeling deeply uncomfortable and very guilty

37:50

about their country and about their white skin and so uh where do that history

37:58

where does that come from why is that the case is it is there not is it not in the National curriculum that they need to learn a certain thing how has it got

38:04

to a place that history be is being taught in that way because it's sort of how many

38:11

people's view British history now um if you look at the textbooks um if you uh you know it's not

38:21

just textbooks that are used people create their own PowerPoints um if if just random

38:26

teachers creating power points then you are actually um well it's up to the

38:33

individual teacher we're at the mercy of how they see the world and if the teachers tend to have a very Progressive

38:40

Outlook and if they feel deeply ashamed of their country um they're going to teach it in that kind of way um and it's

38:48

entire we're at their Mercy uh you know this idea that which you sort of are

38:54

suggesting that there is a curriculum and that we all have have the same resources and that the resources are all

39:00

excellent and that we all go out there and teach in the same fashion that's not happening at all um as never happened

39:07

um so but there is a national curriculum yeah but you don't necess I

39:14

mean what does that mean there there are certain subjects that you should be teaching and even then you don't have to follow the national curriculum but even

39:20

if you did I mean look all kids will learn history at school that's all the curriculum is saying teach them some

39:25

history that's all I mean what you teach them in years seven eight and N is entirely up to you only 40% of

39:33

children then go on to take it at GCSE so their history is taught at primary

39:38

school and then in years s eight and N uh they're not held to account by any national exams on this they could be

39:44

taught anything in that time um so and if the teachers tend to feel

39:50

uncomfortable uh with their own history and British history and they teach it in such a way that makes children feel in

39:57

the way that I've said then is it any wonder that we then have problems when

40:02

they are adults and this is the sort of thing that I'm trying to say to people and and nobody's listening you're the

40:08

only one Winston you're the only one who wants to talk about this um it it's uh I feel like you

40:18

know it's a there's a pot of boiling water and the Flames are just they're increasing and increasing and increasing

40:25

and I'm saying look turn the heat down for goodness sake we need to do something different with what's

40:30

happening in our schools but nobody cares about schools uh people don't

40:36

think they're important and this is on all sides of the political spectrum they don't think they're important um they

40:42

think teachers are irrelevant um uh they think I think generally speaking people

40:50

who don't teach think that well if you failed at life you become a teacher um they don't understand how hard it is how

40:57

uh difficult it is not just to run a classroom to run a school and to you have to be countercultural to be saying

41:04

to teach in the way that I'm suggesting right um if you're just doing what everybody else is doing well you're

41:10

probably going to teach history in a way that I would find problematic are you teaching it BR British history so in the

41:17

main although also Western so we would teach the French Revolution uh American Civil Rights for instance because we

41:25

want them to have a general sense imagine was teaching the French Revolution in a positive light I remember not at your school well I

41:31

assume not in your school well what I don't even know if they're

41:38

teaching it and if they are do the kids remember it I don't know I don't think

41:43

people who don't teach don't realize how little is actually taught in schools in

41:50

the time that they have got if you've got one history lesson a week or possibly two where you actually manage

41:56

to get about 30 40 minutes of teaching time if you're lucky where half the kids

42:01

aren't really listening anyway where kids are on their phones or have earphones in and so on what are they

42:07

learning if you're not using the correct teaching methods that will ensure that the children remember what you're

42:13

teaching them children then learn their history from Tik Tok that's where they're learning their history okay so

42:20

there's the there's the way in which we're teaching our children what the resources are how we're teaching them

42:26

quite Poss to hate their country or to feel hated by their country and and what

42:32

are the solutions to that then well this is it it it is complex isn't it um at

42:39

the moment I'm trying the on a very basic level I'm just trying to get people to see the importance of schools

42:45

and why children matter right I'm just trying to get everyone to understand this is on the right and the left that

42:53

we need to look to our schools um that yes we need to deal with adults now I

42:59

understand that but the future of the country is in the hands of the children and in the hands of our teachers right

43:07

the biggest threat to the country is what is being taught in schools and not

43:12

just so we talked about history and we talked about knowledge so our geography curriculum is all about place and

43:18

Britain and children understanding their British geography right now so it's not

The Importance of School Culture in Shaping Society

43:23

just that values we need to come under values okay because that they're they're the biggest thing

43:29

okay so we actively teach the children kindness gratitude

43:35

self-sacrifice uh a a a sense of decency

43:41

um so what do I mean by that um every lunch hour when we do our family lunch

43:47

at the end of it they have to stand up and they have to give an appreciation to a room full of 200 people I'd like to

43:52

give an appreciation to my dad for waking me up this morning and then we all go on the count of 2 one two and we

43:58

all clap now why do we do that and it's not just

44:04

gratitude uh announced publicly it's also privately we write we get the kids to write postcards to their teachers to

44:10

Express gratitude for being taught x y and Zed because no matter how poor you are

44:16

how difficult life is how challenging things are uh you should be grateful for what you've got um and you should be

44:22

grateful because you have more than somebody else but you should be grateful because gratitude makes us happy okay

44:30

now um and this is where so they put on happiness lessons no no no no no

44:36

happiness is a byproduct right it's through so all the self-help books out

44:42

there all of them and I've read loads of them and not for me but I read them because I think isn't it funny this is

44:47

exactly what we're doing at mcka and I read them to show my staff to explain to them why do we do this okay uh all of

44:56

those self-help books talk about the same values that we're teaching our kids so when people have their breakdown at

45:01

45 you know midlife crisis and say what's the point of life Etc and they get those books had they gone to

45:07

Michaela they wouldn't be having that midlife crisis okay because they would have had instilled in them to make it a

45:15

habit of who they are uh the sense of kindness towards others so as an

45:22

example kid drops his plate or actually the whole tub of lasagna that he's

45:28

taking back to the um vegetarian lasagna obviously um taking back to the front

45:34

and he's carrying it and let's say it all falls and loads of lasagna goes everywhere in many other schools es with

45:41

a challenging intake what would happen at that point is the kids would all start

45:46

going that's what they do right my school yeah okay right right so you remember

45:52

exactly and it's horrible because they're laughing at the kid right and it it's not nice it's not kind at our

45:59

school if that were to happen well and it has happened five or

46:04

six kids will run I've seen kids put their fingers into wet lasagna to pick

46:11

it up off the floor and put it in the tin because they want to help their

46:17

their classmate now I've seen that a hundred times over in many different ways okay now what motivates them to do

46:24

that what motivates them to go ah my classmates's in trouble as opposed to

46:30

right kindness gratitude decency right a

46:36

sense of personal responsibility for my behavior that I need to be a decent

46:41

person now children need to be habituated in

46:49

the this behavior and in in these values okay so the the problem self-help books

46:56

have is that they they get to you too late you know you're reading them at 25

47:01

or at 45 and then it's all oh yeah right okay this is revolutionary write down five things that I'm grateful for at the

47:07

end of the day okay I'll start doing that now why do they do that why do they say that they say that because they want

47:13

a ritual daily ritual of forcing you to think about what you're grateful for we

47:18

get the kids to stand up and give appreciations a daily ritual these feelings these values need to be

47:26

habituated okay now if you do that in children when they're young they'll keep

47:32

that for the rest of their lives now obviously there are bad eggs obviously

47:37

not all children who are habituated in this way does it necessarily work

47:43

with I say that every single one of our child moves from here to here now some

47:48

of them move even further right but every single one of them is a better person for having been at Michaela

47:53

there's no question now I do worry about when they leave us how much of that will they lose how much will they ping to the

47:59

to the in the direction that I think the media and Society ends up stoking you

48:06

know the division that we talk about um because diversity is our strength you

48:13

know what are these values that we should be and you say what is the common culture well that that I just talked

48:18

about a sense of personal responsibility you haven't done your homework well you're not blaming the bus it's your

48:23

responsibility right once you get that when you're in the workplace later and

48:29

you don't don't deliver something you're not going to your boss well it was so so fault it was so so fault you your your response is it's on me sorry my fault

48:37

right do you think it's unfair for me to think that traditionally schools would have got those values from Biblical

48:44

scripture and this pushes me to the question I think is a part of it is that are is Britain a Christian country which

Is Britain A Christian Country? & Confronting White Guilt

48:52

is a very difficult question because obviously we are we have multi many

48:58

religions we have 4 million Muslims for example uh who British Muslims and so is

49:04

the common culture to do with Christianity do you think how important is that to us I mean as I said earlier

49:10

there's Christian aspects to Mela even if it's very subtle and and and underneath yes um well the country's uh

49:20

history has been Christian um and so clearly those judeo-christian Val values

49:27

are everywhere um I think we often take them for granted um in our society I

49:33

think um uh progressives will uh they just assume that well everybody thinks

49:39

like this this is normal it's not normal it's been normalized in the country through us having a history of

49:47

Christianity um and it's we Christianity has done such a good job we don't even realize that it's not normal at all that

49:55

Romans when they had a baby they didn't want they just used to leave the baby out in the sun to die you know that uh

50:02

the idea of of of being kind to your neighbor why would you do that you want to kill him so you can take what he has

50:08

you know like like that that is normal what we have here in the west is not

50:15

normal and that's why we should be grateful for it and we should appreciate it um so yes our values at Michaela are

50:23

Judo judeo-christian in their in their beliefs and in their ways because that's

50:29

those are the values that we've all grown up with um does that does that yes for your non-Christian students is that

50:36

a is that a problem is is there every difficulty there friction there no never

50:42

no but then I'm we're not going around saying this is judeo Christian you better do what we say I mean this is

50:49

just what the school is and nobody's going to say well it's wrong to teach

50:54

children kindness it's wrong to teach them gratitude the children love us you know they love the school um the parents love the

51:01

school they know how much the children are learning and how happy they are everyone who comes to visit the school I

51:07

mean this is the thing you don't want to believe me about the school anyone out there listening come and visit us just sign up on the website come and see what

51:13

we do see how happy the children are um and how most importantly they are

51:19

friends with each other across racial and religious divides that they don't think about who is what from where what

51:26

religion they are and so on it's just they don't care now and they don't care

51:32

because we share in this community and we are all kind to each other um if on

51:39

the other hand in a school uh things so somebody called me

51:46

authoritarian the other day and I am everything I know I know it's very

51:51

unfair isn't it so the thing is I am that way with kids I believe we know

51:57

better as adults and I think we need to impose those values on children MH

52:03

um so I think Elon Musk is wrong when it comes to kids when it comes to schools

52:09

why is he wrong he thinks that uh as many people do on the right because

52:14

they're Libertarians um he thinks that it's wrong to teach children what and

52:20

that you need to teach children how teach them how to think is what everybody says don't teach them what to

52:25

think you have to teach them what to think I thought no you made this point

52:31

fantastically on Jordan's EP uh podcast I think it's a brilliant point and actually if you just the more knowledge

52:37

the less likely you are to get caught into ideologies because you have these other facts not just knowledge and I

52:43

didn't make this clear enough with with right I didn't it was I I I was annoyed

52:49

with myself afterwards look uh and it's you know your listeners

52:54

that can listen to the Jordan Peterson podcast stuff about knowledge we need to teach them two

53:01

things knowledge and values right and I didn't push that point on the values what we don't do is say to kids

53:09

there's this thing called Murder some people think it's good some people think it's bad you decide we don't do that

53:16

what we do is we say murder is wrong and you should not murder we also

53:22

say uh hitting your toddler friend is wrong no no don't do that that's wrong

53:29

that's bad no right yeah and then when they say I want that no don't grab we

53:35

don't grab say please we tell them what to say we tell them what to do this idea

53:43

that we should just let them do whatever they want and just teach them how to think how do you teach a three-year-old how to think that's

53:51

insane it really is and the thing is people on the right are saying it people

53:56

on the left are saying it you know I've always said that the the Spectrum the Left Right spectrum is a circle right it

54:02

is not a a line so people say far right far left no no no no far right far left

54:09

that that's what or horseshoe whatever that's what's going on right and the Libertarians don't realize how

54:16

much they are playing into the hands of the far-left because they're just saying let everybody be free let them do

54:22

whatever they want and then the far-left fill those vacuums the culture vacuums and um and we are where we are

54:31

and I say where we are where we are and and I and I do hold uh the the

54:36

progressive Outlook responsible um and I really hope some

54:42

progressives listen to this although I don't know if they will you know but I really hope that they will um they're

54:49

responsible for what exactly okay so if we

54:59

are if as a white person um you feel bad about your

55:07

privilege and if that feeling has you doing things that you perhaps wouldn't

55:13

have done otherwise or saying things that you wouldn't have said otherwise that skew things for all of us

55:22

um so um now look I I understand why white

55:28

people might feel like this because they're being made to feel like that because that's the narrative uh Britain is bad Colonial history is bad Britain

55:36

is racist you're a racist if you think X or Y you don't want to be a racist because racism these days has been

55:44

um it's now got the power of I don't

55:52

know it's worse than anything like the idea of being called a racist you'd rather be called a murderer than be

55:58

called a racist you you you simply cannot be that thing and

56:03

so you'll avoid it as a white person and look some genuinely decent white people

56:09

who are progressives they want to make it so

56:15

that multiculturalism can succeed and they think that the problem lies with them they think that the problem lies

56:21

with white people not being understanding enough or not being uh

56:26

liberal-minded enough uh being too racist and so they then think well what

56:32

do I need to do and they're told what you need to be is anti-racist and if you think these things if you believe in uh

56:39

Dei if you change the things that you you know it's wrong for you to hold on

56:45

to the idea that uh baked beans on toast is a good idea or it's wrong for you to

56:51

think that the royal family is important or whatever it is they then go okay okay

56:56

cuz white people are ma are being made to feel deeply uncomfortable about who they are and um that's not helpful for

57:05

them or for ethnic minorities and it's certainly not helpful for us all getting on with each other I think it's even worse than that and I think part of the

57:11

reaction and the push back we're seeing now amongst let's say Patriot types yes

57:16

exactly is that they see that their kids are getting taught that they their white

57:22

kids have privilege whatever but they also look at the statistics and see oh white workingclass kids are the least

57:29

successful in school in education and they don't want their kids to be treated differently from anyone else they

57:35

consider it their country and they think it's absurd and that actually builds up resentment and then the then the next

57:41

step in the danger the next danger in that line of thinking is okay well we need to prioritize the white kids now as

57:48

reaction which is I think has come from progressivism and maybe it's an answer to the question that's right everything you're saying absolutely that the

57:54

progressive idea is judging people by different racial ID or ethnic identities

58:00

means that you're going to put get resentment amongst whites that's right look look at the the run in the the the

58:08

campaign for the Democrats in in America it's entirely on racial lines white men for Kamala black women for Kamala back

58:15

to the Democrat Roots I mean indeed like it it's so frightening all of this

58:21

discussion on what Kamala is is she Asian is she black who the hell cares it's just crazy I want to know what her

58:28

policies are I want to know what kind of person she is what are her values what do she think's important I I just look

58:36

and it's funny because for me it's interesting because Kamala being her mom is from India her dad is from Jamaica my

58:44

mom is from Jamaica my father is indog gyane so for the first time some famous

58:49

person is my background basically you know Heritage racial Heritage you feel like she represents your ideas well this

58:56

what so crazy I totally disagree with everything Camala has to say I mean like

59:02

and but but but it's neat it's quite neat I think oh well there's somebody with my Heritage so it's not completely

59:08

meaningless your heritage obviously it means something but it's just it's just quite cute that's all and so we're

59:16

losing sight of what's really important and um and we're losing so when I say

Managing Multiculturalism in Schools and Society

59:24

multiculturalism needs to be managed it needs a muscular management you know in the way that we do

59:30

it and it's not just that multiculturalism needs management schools need management right but isn't

59:37

managing schools managing multiculturalism and this is actually different to how I came into this

59:42

conversation I mistook you saying manage managing multiculturalism as another way

59:49

of saying finding common culture which actually that's separate things it's like there's managing multiculturalism

59:55

and there is finding common culture to unify us as a people have I misunderstood that yeah I think that's

1:00:01

right I think I think what you just said there is right at the end yeah isn't it interesting you know when I say about

1:00:08

Freddy and that conversation I had and he Mis we misunderstood each other you and I

1:00:14

like these ideas are so complex it's really hard to drill down into them look

1:00:21

managing yes I think schools need to manage multiculturalism I think the media and Society needs to manage

1:00:29

multiculturalism um and we don't do that by separating kids

1:00:35

looko kids are separated like it's not just in America like it's not as bad here but there's the LGBT group there's

1:00:43

the Muslim group there's the Hindu group there's the black Caribbean group now it

1:00:48

may not be done uh officially although some groups will be created officially by certain groups um they'll say this is

1:00:55

our LG btq day for instance and so on as opposed to we we're all children together um they when we divide children

1:01:03

into groups like that they identify with their tribe right and

1:01:12

when if black people are on Twitter and they're only looking at black Twitter then they only see black people and

1:01:19

they're only identifying as a black person as opposed to but I'm British and

1:01:25

I'm British before I'm black right I'm a black British person like and that's and

1:01:30

that's great and you could be a Muslim British person and you can be a Hindu British person and you can be a white British person

1:01:37

right and there will be differences we may eat some different foods uh we may

1:01:42

wear different clothes um but there is a common culture under which we survive

1:01:49

and get on with but we are unable as a country to articulate what that is and I'm just going to emphasize this I agree

1:01:55

with that not only is that a problem which we see we've seen this month but if current migration Mass migration

1:02:01

levels are what they are which is roughly 700,000 net a year gross 1.2 million so we're importing so many

1:02:08

people or welc or rather inviting so many people on you know what I'm about

1:02:13

to say on this huge level into this country at a way that we couldn't possibly yes assimilate or integrate

1:02:19

like we used to where there was was a time assimilation wasn't didn't mean getting rid of your culture it means

1:02:24

being part of the culture yeah yeah so the problem we've got as a country is we can't come together and even Define what

1:02:30

it is to be British although I think you've kind of done that with your school some of the things it's kind of History

1:02:37

it'ses Traditions which I think Cuisine comes under the tradition aspect yes yes yes yes and if we can't as a nation

1:02:44

articulate what those things are what what hope do we have of dealing with what we're seeing on the society level

1:02:51

which is horrific like it's really terrifying we're seeing all these anything and and sorry for me to pull

1:02:57

out back to that but I think that's what's so important about what you've done at the Michaela it's it's it's

1:03:03

bloody if not an example at least a bloody attempt yes to unite everyone

1:03:08

it's an example I think it's an example it's an example I think that we should all learn from and um that's why I say

1:03:14

our results are not that interesting I mean they are but actually it's it's who our kids are and how they get on with

1:03:20

each other and how they're not divided and how they're willing to sacrifice things that are important to themselves for the betterment of the whole that

1:03:27

they get that the team is more important than the individual you know

1:03:32

that it's so important and it's and it's so important for us to recognize that

1:03:39

that this needs to happen when they are children so what look your point about immigration

1:03:46

100% like I agree with you 100% uh it's crazy to have so many people coming in

1:03:51

from outside who have different values and different cultures and so on and then how on Earth do we them and it's a real problem um I I agree with that I

1:03:59

think sadly when people hear me say manage multiculturalism they think I mean all these brown and black people

1:04:05

they're a major problem I mean and that's not what I'm saying um and neither are you saying that all

1:04:13

immigration is bad you're just saying too much immigration is bad because it upsets the whole we come back to that

1:04:20

right I'm not even quite saying that but but let's say I am okay we're H I am anyway I'm happy with any number of

1:04:27

things any number of diversity issues different types of food different

1:04:33

types of dress uh different types of dancing we all love salsa dancing and so on right all of that happy with all

1:04:39

kinds of differences different types of religion I'm happy with mosques and churches and

1:04:46

temples I don't mind that it's fine as long as it doesn't upset the

1:04:51

whole right happy with immigration as long as the number don't upset the happiness of the whole

1:04:58

so I think that is but they are in both cases yes no no absolutely and so that

1:05:03

needs to change but what's important that I think I think people on the right

1:05:10

now get distracted by the IM the immigration conversation I I'm not

1:05:15

saying it's not right and true and they're you know I I agree okay but if

1:05:21

you're constantly only looking at that and only talking about that you're missing the big issue that's going on

1:05:30

that in our schools right now children are there being taught or being immersed

1:05:37

in a culture that is teaching them either to hate themselves or to hate their country or that their country hates them and they are becoming the

1:05:44

adults so yes you have adults coming in from outside who don't get the culture

1:05:49

but you've got our own people here both white and non-white who are also so not

1:05:57

loving their country and buying into the national culture because it's all going

1:06:02

wrong when they were younger in their schools so it's not just an immigration

1:06:07

problem you know the the the people I'm even more pessimistic now than when we

1:06:14

started and this is what I'm trying to tell people I'm trying to you know and I'm riging alarm Bells here right look

1:06:21

and I'm ringing alarm bells for those on the right who don't tend to understand that point but I'm also ringing alarm

1:06:26

bells for those on the left who I know they want what's best I know

1:06:32

they want everybody to get on but we can't just kid ourselves into getting

1:06:37

along we can't just pretend that we're all getting along when we're clearly not what I found so bizarre about

1:06:43

discussions that I would have on Twitter is that they would be going on about the far right and how terrible it is and so on but how dare you say that

1:06:50

multiculturalism needs to be managed and I'd say but the fact that the far right exists just shows it's that is that is

1:06:56

proof of the fact that we need to manage multiculturalism right because if if we were all getting along

1:07:03

happily then we wouldn't be having riots right like obviously we're not and and

1:07:09

where I need to push back on the Progressive is when they sort of just say yeah but they're Psychopaths when they label them the far

The Emergence of The ‘Far-right’ & UK Riots

1:07:16

right I'll tell you what the problem is with that look I mean yes there were far-right groups that were involved and

1:07:22

yes uh you know it's bad to be on the far right and you know people say well you need to condemn it I condemn that

1:07:28

right absolutely I think that the people who are involved in those riots should be punished it's absolutely Dreadful I'm

1:07:34

the strictest headmistress in Britain clearly I think people need to be held to account for their behavior

1:07:41

however there's also people who will be involved there who are not necessarily

1:07:46

part of those farri groups and what I mean by that who may have rioted even who won't have been

1:07:53

part of those farri groups because there and so and so throws a brick and

1:07:59

you get you get H up in the moment and you throw a brick and you go yeah yeah well no I go further than that is that

1:08:04

they're not necessarily we don't know what their politics are and if their politics are who they elected they're labor so they're not far right

1:08:10

politically but it's when three of our daughters yes are exactly and by the way

1:08:15

this isn't just happened out of nowhere this is in the context of the grooming gangs I think that's happened for

1:08:21

decades up and down the country and all the what can you expect of men who have been told constantly no we're not going

1:08:29

to do anything about the fact that your daughters are raped groomed and sometimes killed yes exactly and and and

1:08:34

we can talk about like the plus sides of immigration but let's talk about the negatives the plus sides might be that we draw against Switzerland in the Euros

1:08:41

the negatives also include the grooming gangs that that wouldn't have happened if there wasn't why you want to push back on you positives are well for

1:08:48

instance you have me as a headress I'm me you know you have lots of ethnic minorities

1:08:55

who are you know you go to a a hospital you're hard pushed to find a white doctor you know there's they're all

1:09:01

brown and black you know like like the fact is the the ethnic minorities contribute massively to society you know

1:09:07

so we don't want to say that that's not the case um but but so I I made this point to to be that all of these people

1:09:14

that we're called fire right and if they're if they're engaging in political violence then it's probably a Justified

1:09:19

to call them far right but a lot of them we don't know what their politics are they might not have any politics and they're just angry men who are that

1:09:25

their daughters are being and we don't know who is what that that's exactly that's exactly right we don't know and there will be some who are part of fire

1:09:32

groups fine but there's a whole bunch of them who are angry and are reacting and

1:09:37

then I I I suppose what the progressive would say is but yes but they threw uh bricks at at the MOs MOS you know which

1:09:44

by the way just for clarity of anyone's listening I agree with you they should be punished it's not acceptable ever political violence is never acceptable

1:09:50

just for that exactly it's awful um and it's interesting because when try and

1:09:56

find as you are want to talk about the explanations for why this is happening

1:10:01

I'm told by progressives that I'm excusing their behavior and I'm saying

1:10:06

no of course I'm not I'm the strictest headmistress in Britain I am not excusing their behavior I'm trying to

1:10:12

find explanations why am I trying to find those explanations not to say that it's okay for them to behave that way

1:10:19

but so that there aren't more and more of these incidents happening in the future MH because if if I don't if we

1:10:26

don't find the if we don't understand the explanation and if we don't

1:10:31

accurately pinpoint what's going wrong in our country then things are going to get worse and worse um some months ago I

1:10:39

talked about multiculturalism at the arc Conference in October last year uh is a

1:10:46

10-minute um little speech I gave which some of your listeners might want to listen to and I I talk about exactly

1:10:53

this multiculturalism how to make it work and the reason I did that and the reason I keep talking about

1:10:59

multiculturalism is because I very much feared what would happen which is

1:11:06

exactly what has happened that uh the the far right starts to get angry and

1:11:12

starts taking notice that people who are not part of the far right get join up

1:11:18

with the far right in in in political violence um and that others then get

1:11:25

drawn into that even more so because they have nowhere to go because they feel nobody is representing them and

1:11:30

nobody is listening to their issues you know and um what I keep trying to say to

1:11:36

the progressives is listen we ha we we have to get a hold of this because if if

1:11:41

we're just blind and constantly saying but everything's great the diversity is our strength we're we're all happy this

1:11:48

is going to get worse and worse and eventually I I don't even know I don't I don't know I mean I genuinely I live

1:11:55

in in in a sort of genuine fear about what's going to happen yeah likewise which is why I wanted to have this

1:12:02

conversation what do you think the root causes are for what we saw in

1:12:08

Southpaw look there as with anything there will be a whole variety of different causes I wouldn't want to

1:12:14

Discount you know this idea that um the far right uh that there will have been some of them who organized and decided

1:12:21

to stir up uh sensitivities um that were those rumors going around about who it was and so on

1:12:29

um that uh you know there was that aspect but then we also need to ask

1:12:36

ourselves but why were various people uh

1:12:41

easily um uh inspired to participate in

1:12:46

political violence um you see where where the reason why I'm so reluctant to just go oh it's the far right um is

1:12:54

because that absolves all of us from um having to think about it and having to

1:13:02

um think about the future and think what's the vehicle for the future um all

1:13:07

the things that you said if these men feel that um they are not represented their views

1:13:14

are not represented that their children are being taught things in schools that they wouldn't necessarily agree with

1:13:21

that uh that their children are at risk um when a country is unable to protect

1:13:28

uh its own children you know like it it is just so I mean those fames I can't

1:13:35

imagine the horror and it's not just the three girls who sadly were murdered all

1:13:42

of those children for the rest of their lives they will be affected by that I I

1:13:47

I I just I can't I can't it it's just it is so horrifying um I just you know I'm

1:13:55

so horrified by it when it happened I didn't even comment on it I didn't know what to say yeah I just thought I can't even put the Tweet out because it

1:14:02

somehow it diminishes the the the it's just so awful I mean and

1:14:10

it it's so awful especially in a in a in a day and age when you know I'm very

1:14:16

much a a believer in allowing children to have some bits of freedom to don't

1:14:21

leave them on social media at home you know get them out playing football take them to a dance class you know I just

1:14:29

honestly I um I I I I find it so upsetting anyway I mean I I just

1:14:38

uh that is so upsetting but then what is equally upsetting is that I feel like

1:14:44

we're just running off a cliff because um because social media media divides us

1:14:50

we're not listening to each other at all um

1:14:56

the the progressives desperately need to to to know what's going on what how

1:15:01

ordinary people feel and if they just label everybody as far right or they don't want to listen to them because

1:15:06

it's GB news you know the way in which they talk about GB news is if it's just a bunch of Nazis you know talk radio you

1:15:14

know I I just I

1:15:20

I the progressives should really do that because they're basically pushing

1:15:25

everyone who doesn't agree with the progressive view into these arms and so if they want to be part of the

1:15:32

conversation about what exactly how to deal with the problems they need to engage with the problems if we want to

1:15:39

stop they as you say they're pushing these people in that direction and and so the fringes then will go further

1:15:46

further in that direction and then we how do we come back from this you know I don't know what we do I mean at the look

1:15:53

I I have to just you know we we all have to just um think what small things can

How We Can Improve Society With Schools

1:15:58

we achieve that my small little dream at the moment is to try and explain to people schools are really important kids

1:16:05

matter what they think matters the habits the values the knowledge that we give them matters and all of that then

1:16:13

helps us see what things will be like in five years in 10 years that our schools are huge look I think in the 1950s

1:16:21

everybody would have understood what I'm saying it would have just been normal people would not have thought of schools as merely vehicles to get results okay

1:16:29

they they just wouldn't have thought like that there was no National curriculum there was no um uh uh uh set

1:16:36

of national you know the you set of national exams that the school is being held to account for you as an individual

1:16:44

did what you could do and then you took your exams right it the school would

1:16:50

have understood that its job wasn't just let's get as high a a grade as we can on

1:16:55

the leak tables the school would have been the school mistress in her classroom would have been thinking how

1:17:02

do I develop my children to have those judeo-christian values that I was

1:17:07

talking about personal responsibility a sense of Duty towards others a personal sacrifice when you know thinking about

1:17:13

the whole kindness gratitude all of these she would have been instilling that in her children because she would

1:17:19

have known that it was her responsibility to create those children into some that you would be proud of

1:17:27

later when they are adults um I think we've lost that in education very much

1:17:33

so uh and that that way of thinking you could talk about that entirely in

1:17:39

isolation away from multiculturalism couldn't you like that all of that stuff I've just spoken about you could do it

1:17:44

and not talk about multiculturalism but all of those values

1:17:50

immediately help multiculturalism to succeed you know that that's the thing

1:17:56

and and and where you know I've been very critical of progressors what would I be critical of the people on the on the right

1:18:01

for one they talk incessantly about immigration I understand I agree

1:18:08

but I I just think they're missing something when they're only talking about that when you say they're missing

1:18:13

something by only talking about that do you mean to say that that's not going to sort all the

1:18:20

problems out or okay so that's right and they're not seeing

1:18:26

so the man who you know the perpetrator of the Southport incident was brought up

1:18:33

in Wales um born in Cardiff Axel muga Ruda kubana is of Rwanda

1:18:41

Heritage so he went to school now I'm not saying it's a school's fault okay I'm not saying that

1:18:49

I'm saying that there is a culture in our country

1:18:55

in our schools which teaches children either to hate their country to hate uh to feel

1:19:04

their country hates them to feel very ashamed of who they are if they're white

1:19:11

um and that is not helpful for white people or for black and brown people and

1:19:19

uh it means that people do stuff and say

1:19:24

say stuff that they wouldn't otherwise have done and said um

1:19:32

and the values that I talk about in schools if we understand that

1:19:41

the kids coming through our schools you know how many people understand that children that you know I've just

1:19:47

explained to you about how history is taught and how little of it is taught and how actually kids are learning their history on Tik Tok and how many how many

1:19:55

how many people get that how many people know what's going on on the right they don't have any idea and so they talk

1:20:02

about the stuff that's obvious right that's in the media I'm saying that it's

1:20:07

the stuff underneath the carpet that we have to be looking at about our

1:20:12

institutions people talk about the march on the institutions and so on right that that's important the

1:20:19

institutions create our society schools are the most important place for our the

1:20:27

future of the country we should care about what's going on in our schools we should be interested nobody's interested

1:20:33

nobody cares I find that even parents to some extent don't care now what I mean by that is not our parents Michaela I'm

1:20:40

just saying parents across the country what do I mean by that everybody cares when their kid is in your six got to get

1:20:47

him into a decent school got to get him into decent school oh ofstead say this school's outstanding oh I've got him in there brilliant that's it that's all M

1:20:55

when your kid comes home from at the end of the day at school do you know what's happened how's your day darling fine

1:21:02

okay dinner's at 6 that that that's what you don't have any idea what are they being taught

1:21:08

what's their homework is it the right homework what have they been taught to hate their country that day what do you know I mean you have absolutely no

1:21:16

idea what is being what your child is doing all day in school and so and nobody cares right

1:21:25

parents sort of just want to get them into a good school whatever that means and then once they've done that they think it's okay and I mean the parents

1:21:32

who can pay for Education they think oh I've got him into a good private school he's fine how do you know that yeah

1:21:38

right right and I'm saying we all have to be interested in what's happening in schools not just with regard to the

1:21:43

multiculturalism issue with regard to everything what are they being taught what knowledge are they being taught what values are they being Tau those two

1:21:50

things if we get that right we are far more like to succeed as a country not

1:21:56

just because multiculturalism would succeed but because everybody would be a

1:22:01

lot smarter in their jobs everybody would be a lot more knowledgeable about history that's why Elon Musk is wrong

1:22:08

the reason the reason why he says teach them how to think it's because he's worried because kids are being taught

1:22:13

what to think and they're being taught bad things right and he knows that he's worried that they're being

1:22:19

taught you know the British were evil slavers and

1:22:25

uh and that's it and they're not being taught that the British um uh abolish

1:22:30

slavery for instance right so he's saying teach them how to think but that doesn't even mean anything I think that's not actually would be the concern

1:22:36

of let's say I don't know about Elon Musk but it's it's close but it would be more

1:22:42

like uh K our kids are being taught that everything is a power Dynamic I postmodernist and there's an oppression

1:22:47

oppressed and so when they think that our kids are being taught how to think as in to see the world as an oppressive

1:22:53

oppressed and and so the answer is we need to teach them how to think that's not that way of thinking but notice how

1:23:00

that is just teaching kids what to think right right yeah that is simply to teach them what to think just like murder is

1:23:07

wrong hitting your friend is wrong um you know you need you need to find out

1:23:15

lots of knowledge on something before you make a decision about it and not just assume that uh the world is in

1:23:21

these two categories of oppressor and and and and victim uh that is to teach

1:23:27

them what to think uh Elon is just disagreeing with what they are currently being taught and he's quite right to be

1:23:34

disagreeing with that um what do we do about it well I mean

1:23:39

look at the very least the first step is to get people to understand the importance of schools what do we do

What Does Labour Gov Mean For Schools

1:23:45

we've got a new labor government what should they be doing what would your message be to them and how they should

1:23:53

manage manager education maybe even a broader question is what do you think are you hopeful or more pessimistic with

1:23:59

the labor government coming in um what what does that mean for education in Britain well it's hard to say I mean

1:24:06

obviously they're new Kier starmer I don't you know I'm I judge people on what they say and what they do

1:24:13

um I I do worry though I worry that

1:24:20

[Music] um I

1:24:28

I I I worry look white Guild um and I'm not saying well I am

1:24:36

saying i' I see more of that in the labor party for instance you know taking

1:24:41

the knee in 2020 and so on um that was

1:24:47

that would that that I think white people take the knee because of white guilt um and I know how much

1:24:54

damage white guilt does uh because it influences every decision that is made

1:25:01

not just political decisions but personal decisions everything it's there all of the time and it influences our

1:25:08

culture so I'm not talking about Labor policies necessarily I'm just saying

1:25:14

that if the people in charge are are riddled with white guilt and I say if

1:25:20

because I don't know for certain how much but I do know for instance that kir St took the knee and that makes me go oh

1:25:27

I don't like that and the reason I don't like that is that it makes me worry

1:25:32

about how much guilt is inside him because I know that as a leader if he

1:25:37

has lots of white guilt he will make a poor leader because culturally he will make decisions that

1:25:44

are not good decisions because they'll necessarily be influenced by this

1:25:50

knowing guilt in him which will make him do things that

1:25:55

will will deal with that guilt perhaps giving him an image of somebody who's an

1:26:01

anti-racist giving him an image of somebody who uh loves diversity um

1:26:09

because if you don't love diversity therefore you're a racist then you couldn't possibly ever be a racist because that's unacceptable therefore

1:26:15

I'm going to do things and say things that I wouldn't normally have done if it weren't for this white guilt that well

1:26:22

I'd call it bring to make that super relevant to this month his first month as prime minister we had yesterday at

1:26:29

time of recording he gave a press conference in response to the riots that

1:26:34

happen in Southport but this month we've also had riots as I mentioned earlier in hair Hills in White Chapel in Rochdale

1:26:42

none of which was white people or British indigenous or whatever you want to call it yes there was no such press conference but there's a different

1:26:48

standard here now it might be as you say white Gil or it might be that he's swimming in these ideological Waters

1:26:53

that's right that are adjacent to the white guilt ideology I guess yeah

1:26:58

possibly anyway I'm just just to color what you just said the waters like that's important the the waters that we

1:27:04

are in culture each strategy for breakfast right that and so it's all

1:27:10

about say that again culture eats what strategy for breakfast it's it's one of those quotes that you know some Guru

1:27:15

some business Guru or something I don't know that's what they say culture eat strategy for breakfast that's a great yeah that's exactly right that's what's

1:27:21

happening yeah and and and and anyone who runs an organization you've always got to look at your culture so we wrote

1:27:27

a book our teachers at school we wrote a book called The Power of culture where each one of my teachers writes a different chapter um I don't

1:27:36

strategize I manage my culture at school that's what I'm doing all the time and

1:27:41

my worry it's the same for the country our leaders should be managing the culture and if the culture is being

1:27:50

managed by people who swim in the waters of white guilt and who feel that white guilt themselves we're in trouble now I

1:27:59

don't know how much I don't know with K ster I don't know you make the point about the different um riots and so on I

1:28:08

and I don't know enough about the different riots I I just don't know enough to be able to comment um uh

1:28:14

properly on that so I don't know I I do I do worry I worry because so many white

Division, White Guilt and Modern Racism

1:28:21

people are affected by this white guilt you almost you have to be exceptional not to have white guilt um because it's

1:28:28

not their fault it's that um everybody tells you need to be guilty and all the

1:28:34

white fragility and why I'm not speaking to white people about race and all those books are everywhere you go into water

1:28:39

stones and you see them all laid out and so those are the books that you should read and if you turn on Netflix it's all

1:28:45

about you know race is everywhere these days I I miss the 1990s I really do uh

1:28:52

it wasn't like this and exactly I didn't know then just how lucky we were I didn't realize how it

1:28:59

could change how H and the thing is my young staff who are 23 24 whatever 26 28

1:29:08

I mean I I have to keep saying to them you

1:29:13

don't know what it was like I remember what it was like and it was different now look I have to say in the ' 80s

1:29:21

there was I mean and in the '90s but especially in the ' 80s I remember there was some serious racism you know and racism that I suffered from at school

1:29:27

and so on you know so you know I'm not saying it was all glorious

1:29:35

but I kind of preferred that racism wow yeah I kind of I kind of did

1:29:42

you kind of just knew how to deal with it and you just yeah I kind of preferred that I

1:29:49

mean I say kind of you know I don't know I mean obviously as a kid growing up it was hard to be called names and so on

1:29:55

you know racis you don't mean the riots you mean the kind of racism you exper in the 1980s yeah yeah I mean I preferred

1:30:02

that racism to this weird racism that exists now when I say weird racism what

1:30:07

I mean is the kind of condescension that comes from the progressives towards me

1:30:14

uh calling me a useful idiot and so on uh their refusal to listen to anyone who

1:30:21

doesn't think like them their Des desire to absolve themselves with their white

1:30:26

guilt and therefore saying any number of things about race um just tell me what

1:30:33

to say I'll say it just don't call me a racist kind of thing you know uh I

1:30:40

am yeah it's it's um it's problematic I don't I don't know I don't know how fix

1:30:46

this in I brought up the only time race would ever be bought up is if you were let's say quickly identifying people but

1:30:52

essentially we were color blind and then all this stuff comes up over the last let's say 10 years and it

1:30:58

trains you to race that's it so I I remember trying to like understand this new Progressive ideology I read all the

1:31:05

woke Literature Like tanah hassy coats or eventually Robin D'Angelo and it it

1:31:10

forces you to see race first before everything else right so I had to like get away from all that stuff and it rots

1:31:17

your brain I mean that's right so people now will say to me oh we really want you to be part of our Board of XYZ dead um

1:31:25

because you know we we need more diversity and I and I think to myself so sorry so I'm me I've done all my

1:31:32

achievements everything I've done and all you can see when you look at me is that I've got brown skin you know and I

1:31:37

don't that didn't used to happen you know it didn't used to happen so it um

1:31:42

it's because people are being taught to only see race and only see religion uh

1:31:47

and that is is is I thought that this some of this stuff might have gone away and that we might have seen that at its

1:31:53

PE in 2020 and that seems to be there's been a significant push back against it

1:32:00

that know you're shaking your head I'm wrong you think this is no I we could have another Summer of Love like we did

1:32:06

in 20 I mean I guess we're kind of sort of having a inversion of the summer of the love right now yeah look I I I think

1:32:12

you mix in um uh circles with lots of right-wing people which is fine I'm not

1:32:18

criticizing you but I I don't think you you see what

1:32:24

I I see and um in education yeah and uh I don't think

1:32:31

um yes there are people who are pushing back but there's a whole bunch of people who are not hearing from those people at

1:32:37

all uh the progressives they're not hearing from them and um when they do

1:32:42

they double down you know you saw the the the the Senate half being attacked

1:32:48

and the Winston Churchill and so on I mean all of these well you've seen all of that I mean

1:32:54

this isn't you know it's that's not things

1:32:59

getting better that's things getting worse

1:33:06

um yeah I mean I I see it because I meet my teachers I I hear what you know I I I

1:33:12

I I know what they're all struggling with look my teachers come and teach at my school

1:33:18

um they're their friends they lose friends you know their boyfriends and

1:33:23

girlfriend split up with them um it it this is this is a serious problem that

1:33:30

we've got uh in in our society and um

1:33:36

I and and we also follow America so what's happening with the Democrats and

1:33:43

the divisions there um I've been doing some work with a school in the Bronx helping

1:33:50

them um we were looking for a head of school trying to find somebody who

1:33:56

didn't immediately at interview talk about everything through the prism of race was so difficult so hard I mean

1:34:06

uh everything has been racialized Now in America it it didn't used to be like that in the 1990s it was not like that

1:34:12

in America um and we tend to follow America with its Trends

1:34:18

and we will especially follow America if white people are told you are a racist

1:34:26

if you don't believe in Dei for example um because nobody wants to be called a

1:34:31

racist because it's basically the worst thing you can call somebody um it's worse than that by the way because not

1:34:36

only is that true but also if you call Cela a Dei vice president or anyone Dei

1:34:42

then you're also racist for saying de you're racist if you say it exists and you're racist if you say you don't believe in it so either way you know

1:34:48

that's right so we must put her in because we need Dei to to be successful how dare you then say it no we need to

1:34:54

pretend that it didn't exist I mean it's just uh I I I don't I don't I I I don't

1:35:01

know I don't know well look my very modest attempt now is to Simply get

1:35:07

people to understand how important schools are uh and to understand what's happening in our schools and what we

1:35:13

need to do in our schools to change things yeah um and this isn't me blaming schools I need to say this you know uh

1:35:21

because uh it is so so hard to run a good school to run a good classroom you

1:35:28

have to be countercultural how do we address that how do we teach our

1:35:33

teachers um the British history that we'd like our kids to learn how do we um

1:35:40

make sure that the values that we should be teaching our children our teachers have and that they should want to

1:35:46

inculcate those values in our children you know um I think

1:35:54

for instance some teachers will see their their role as being much more

1:36:00

aligned with an idea of trying to encourage children to reject the

1:36:06

establishment that you need to create little revolutionaries because the establishment is evil and we need to

1:36:13

overthrow it and we need to teach them how to do that and they see that as being a good person that's what it is to

1:36:20

be good um that teaching British history to kids because it's their history and a

1:36:29

history they should be proud of but also critical of um that isn't it's not seen

1:36:35

in that way and that um we you know the idea of being

1:36:44

patriotic um I remember once uh uh one

1:36:49

of the writers for the Sunday Times or times he came and um

1:36:54

he uh Dominic Lawson and he came and uh he he saw the the kids and heard them

1:37:01

singing God saved the king and he said to me Katherine are you deliberately trying to be

1:37:08

controversial and uh and for singing the National Anthem yeah that's it and then

1:37:13

he also heard the um the poem If You Know by Kipling and again Katherine what

1:37:21

are you trying to do you know and uh and iing but it's a beautiful poem that

1:37:27

really you know represents our values

1:37:34

um I don't know it's particularly woring that the national anthem is considered controversial in this day and AG however

1:37:41

Catherine I think we no no no but it is like hardly anyone sings it you go to

1:37:47

any school they don't sing the national anthem you might at a few private schools once a term possibly at some

1:37:53

Chapel event or something that they would sing the national anthem oh no it's never like it is massively

1:38:00

controversial I mean yeah that's very worrying on a

Closing Thoughts

1:38:07

positive note and I I think that we have touched on some pessimistic aspects

1:38:13

there at the end but positives I've taken away from this conversation is is that you've really hammered the idea of

1:38:20

manage multiculturalism through Civic institutions and it's there's a lot of talk about universities how universities

1:38:26

but no one thinks so much as about about secondary and primary schools and so that seems to I've really got that message from you in this conversation

1:38:33

and some of the other positives I've taken from this is that teaching British history some of these aspects like some

1:38:42

things like the national anthem that do do unify us it seems to me and and the

1:38:47

values and the values of course right the these are ways which it's not

1:38:53

actually that's secular actually there's there's an element of tradition and history to it and that to me gives me

1:39:01

hope as the common culture I'd been looking for at the beginning of this conversation when you say secular it's interesting so when you say secular what

1:39:07

do you mean without religion right have I got the wrong is

1:39:13

that no I'm just wondering because actually it made me think oh well what do I mean when I say secular what do you mean when you say

1:39:22

secular I suppose I've always thought of it as not of any one particular religion

1:39:27

you know that we have all of our religions there that all of our children are of different religions and races and

1:39:34

so on and that we have a multicultural community that we exist under one umbrella where we have shared values and

1:39:41

shared rituals and shared knowledge and so on um but that we allow difference as

1:39:48

long as it does not upset the whole I I yeah and that um that is something that

1:39:56

we actively manage daily that we're thinking about all of the time um at

1:40:03

Michaela at Michaela yeah exactly uh because we know how important culture is

1:40:11

because it eats strategy for breakfast yeah I love that yeah Katherine thank you so much for your time is there

1:40:17

anything you think we miss that you'd like to just anything you think needs clarifying um we sounds like we

1:40:23

clarified a couple of your previous podcast interviews on this show so maybe if you'll do it on the next one but well you know and isn't it amazing CU it's so

1:40:30

hard these topics are so complex that even with an hour and a half chat I come

1:40:36

out thinking oh I should have said this oh I didn't say that Etc you know so yeah thank you for having me because

1:40:42

it's such an important topic and I'm so thrilled to be able to talk about it in such detail with you because um I I do

1:40:49

think much can be learned from what we do at Michaela and you know people think oh she's just so

1:40:55

full of herself no it's just that I have an example of a multicultural Community that's hugely successful and it's

1:41:01

because we manage it daily and I think Lots can be learned from it and how can people find you or Michaela you earlier

1:41:09

in this conversation you invited people to come visit how would they do that yeah so uh well you could just Google Michaela community school and then you

1:41:14

go on our website and you can visit the school there but I'm also on Twitter um

1:41:20

you're very on Twitter yes yes Miss Snuffy is my

1:41:25

missor Snuffy ffy um as in Miss Snuffleupagus is what I used to be when

1:41:31

I wrote a Blog many many many years ago uh because Mr sopus is the big elephant

1:41:37

in the room in Sesame Street oh so that's why I'm Miss Snuffy I'm still

1:41:42

miss Snuffy somewhat embarrassingly seeing as I'm also meant to be the strictest head mistress in the in the country so um uh but yes that's why uh

1:41:50

snuffle up iess that's so cool um well thank you so much and I hope we'll get to talk again I hope so too W thank you

1:41:58

thank you for watching the Winston Marshal show if you want to SP the show all you have to do is press subscribe we will see you next time

0:00

they are being taught that Britain is bad because of its Colonial history

0:05

because of slavery that Britain is racist if that's what they're learning all of the time ethnic minority kids

0:12

grow up very angry and resentful of their country and the white kids will come out feeling deeply uncomfortable

0:19

and very guilty about their country and about their white skin and what are the solutions to that well this is it it it

0:28

is complex isn't it no when I say this people get angry can you tell me why that's offensive to people and that is

0:35

where the the phrase diversity is our strength is hugely problematic the

0:41

biggest threat to the country is what is being taught in schools you have

0:47

absolutely no idea what your child is doing all day in school so I think Elon

0:53

Musk is wrong when it comes to kids when it comes to schools what is he wrong he

0:58

thinks that it it's so frightening all of this

1:03

discussion on what Kamala is is she Asian is she black who the hell cares if we can't as a nation articulate what

1:11

those things are what what hope do we have of dealing with what we're seeing on the society level which is horrific

1:18

things are going to get worse and [Music]

1:24

worse hello and welcome to the Winston Marshall show with me Winston Marshall I sat down with Katherine BBL Singh the

1:31

head teacher and founder of the Michaela Community School in Northwest London the

1:36

reason I wanted to talk to her is because England which is having suffering a great deal at the moment

1:43

coming out the back of what happened in Southport and the following riots we

1:49

wanted to look at multiculturalism something that she'd been talking about but also something

1:54

that she has been doing with her schools now for over 10 years how to bring

2:01

together different communities a multicultural Community into one common culture I think this might be the most

2:07

important question facing our country today and so we went deep into that what she's doing at the school itself but

2:15

also a look at the country uh politically but also different communities looking into education all

2:22

aspects really what it is to be British what it is that unifies us it was an important conversation and one that I

2:29

think will take a lot away from before you hear from Catherine if you want to support the show all you have to do is

2:34

press subscribe if you do that we can explore more difficult important topics like this one and I can invite more

2:40

phenomenal guests like Katherine onto the show but without further Ado

2:46

Katherine bubling thank you for coming in the question I want to get to

The Challenges of Multiculturalism in Britain

2:51

eventually is what is it that is the common culture for Britain yeah you've

2:58

talked about managing Ing multiculturalism and I think you've used the language common culture is something

3:05

that is to unify us the reason why I think this is so important well firstly I think this might be the most important

3:10

question facing our country we're told every day diversity is our greatest strength I have to believe Unity is our

3:16

greatest strength not against diversity but without Unity what good is it yeah I think you with your schools with the

3:22

Michaela Community School you're actively doing it unlike all these other people on Twitter as we discussed you're

3:28

putting your money away your mouth is you're and your issu who to ask but there's

3:34

aext if for our listeners I I'll paint a little bit if you don't mind which is

3:40

the it's been our country is ruling it's been a horri horrible month which has

3:46

ended with the murder of the three girls in uh in Southport Elise dot

3:51

stanum Alice DVA agua and BB King

3:57

and that's then inspired a bunch of protests before that we had very

4:04

shocking scenes also as well as the recent ones in in har Paul and White

4:09

Hall and of course South but before that we had hair Hills we had Rochdale it seems that the country is there's

4:17

rioting happening along tribal lines along sectarian lines exactly and I I

4:24

don't remember our country ever being like this and so before getting to the big question about what unites us I

4:31

thought it might be worth exploring and maybe coming to maybe we'll agree maybe we won't agree about what the problems

4:37

are right now facing Britain and what the root causes of those problems are

4:43

forgive me this is a broad question but what we've seen in the last month well

4:48

actually I should say you've I've seen you do media and you have used the you've concentrated to talking about

4:54

managing multiculturalism implicit there is that you think that there are some downsides to multiculturalism and that

4:59

that related to what we've seen this month have I understood that correctly well I don't I wouldn't say that there are downsides necessarily it's just that

5:06

it needs to be managed carefully so

5:12

look uh I am the daughter of um uh my

5:18

Jamaican mother and my indog Guyanese father I am uh the product of

5:24

multiculturalism um but it doesn't come without its difficulties um when I was

5:30

about 15 years old I discovered that I had four cousins these boys who were my

5:36

brother's his brother's uh children um I had never met them um because uh for all

5:43

those years um his brother had had not spoken to my father because uh he had

5:49

married my mother um it it there are difficulties when it comes to managing

5:55

multiculturalism and um that's because uh sometimes people can come with

6:00

prejudices so I think that that that is a real uh issue you know people on the left I think when they accuse me think

6:07

that I don't understand that I do get that but um I think it is also the case that

6:15

different cultures come with different expectations and uh different demands

6:20

and sometimes those demands Clash so as an example um at our school uh Muslims

Prioritising Community Needs in a Multicultural School

6:28

for instance eat meat but no pork Hindus eat meat but no beef um uh Muslims would

6:36

like to eat halal meat Jews would like to eat kosher um uh siks cannot eat any

6:44

type of meat that has been treated in a different kind of way so what do you do right well I tell you what we did we

6:51

went vegetarian um and India did the same thing they've got all these different cultures well you know what

6:57

we're going to do we're going to go vegetarian now I've had criticism from the right on that because their position

7:03

is well you shouldn't Bend at all uh now I'm not saying everyone on the right thinks that some people in the right

7:09

would say that I should just be serving normal food and that either people get

7:15

with it or they don't um now why is it an issue for us because we have family lunch this is what we call it and we all

7:22

eat the same food so there isn't any choice now you might want to get round it by just giving out a variety of

7:28

different choice but it becomes complicated you know kosher Halal the

7:33

kitchen is different you can't use the same utensils you know etc etc so there

7:38

are logistical things when it comes to running institutions like hospitals and schools and so on uh that get in the way

7:46

uh this idea that I think uh some progressives have which is that well

7:51

multiculturalism is wonderful just throw everybody in a big pot and let's get to it it's all fine they don't recognize

7:58

that some desires and demands clash and

8:03

then you need some way of dealing with the Clash uh some way of of

8:09

prioritizing and what we do at Michaela is that we

8:14

prioritize um the success of the whole Community above the desires of any

8:21

individual group or any individual person MH um so uh something that has

8:26

nothing to do with multiculturalism uh for instance is uh our silent corridors

8:32

uh people say to me why do you need silent corridors I mean they're not entirely silent we say good morning good afternoon but that's it we don't have

8:38

conversations people think it's Draconian I why am I obsessed with this

8:43

idea of having silent corridors well because I spent all my life working in the inner city and seeing what the

8:49

corridors at inner city schools look like which is kids getting be beaten up uh bullying their heads being smashed

8:56

into the walls and all sorts now um it's true that there are some kids who

9:02

you could have perhaps your you're better behaved kids you're you know because you have naughty kids and then you have kids who are who are who are

9:08

who are nicer let's say if you have a very selective environment you might not need silent

9:14

corridors um if it's not selective well some of those kids it's true are having

9:20

to be silent when they do they would be able to get along fine without being

9:26

silent but they make that sacrifice for the betterment of the whole so all of

9:32

our children and all of our families are told I explain all of this before they visit they come to the school they join

9:38

the school and I say look we need to succeed as a team and as a as a whole

9:45

school and in order to do that you're going to have to make certain sacrifices

9:50

and that that's just the deal that's part of the deal uh you're going to have to eat vegetarian food at lunch doesn't

9:57

mean you have to be vegetarian at home but you do have to be vegetarian at lunch because we can't make it work

10:03

otherwise we can't make family lunch work and I love family lunch because and you will have to come and visit at some

10:09

point um I love it because the kids serve each other food uh they have a a a chat as if you

10:17

might do around the dinner table um they clean up after each other it's very

10:22

different to the Cantine culture of I'm taking what I want to do me and I'm going to eat my food and then I might

10:29

even leave my plate at the end for the cleaners to pick up because well it's not my responsibility and I very much

10:35

want the children not to have that kind of attitude where they look after each other now those principles are more

10:42

important than children being able to eat exactly what they want um

10:48

so that principle of thinking about the success of the whole and prioritizing

10:54

that over everything else and individual desires is what drives us now people

11:01

then say well why are we talking about this one school you know I get that criticism from both the right and the left they say look Katherine you run a

11:08

school what do you know about society and I would say it means I know everything about

11:15

Society because school is a microcosm of society and what works in

11:22

school tells us what could work in society um and not only that but schools

11:31

make Society people you know one of these days I'm going to write a book called why children

11:37

matter because I don't think we understand that children matter um you

11:43

heard me the other day saying this actually um uh both right left doesn't

11:48

matter the whole political Spectrum doesn't understand this everybody's concentrating on the adults and I

11:53

understand why because we're all adults and we see the problems and we say oh my goodness how do we fix this right now

11:59

and you're absolutely right we do need to concentrate on the now however in four or five years time the

12:06

kids at school will be those adults right and if the schools could be a

12:13

lever that we could pull to make it so that we could get on well as adults well

12:18

why wouldn't we want to pull that and if it's the case that the schools are

12:24

actually currently making it so that the kids are less likely to get on and that

12:29

the adults that they will become are less likely to get on and that if the

12:35

things we continue doing and thinking will ensure that multiculturalism really

12:40

will fail don't we want to change that now

12:46

this is what I'm trying to say to people and and and as soon as I start saying multiculturalism needs managing all hell

12:52

breaks loose I mean I get threatened by the Press they start saying they're going to write an expose on the school

12:59

and how it's so terrible and I'm thinking what are you going to write about the school the kids are really happy the parents are really happy the thing is I'm very used to all kinds of

13:06

hit jobs in the media where they come after me because I'm not allowed to say that

13:11

multiculturalism should be managed MH and I'm trying to ring a big alarm Bell

13:17

here can you can you tell me why that's offensive to people what what's your di why people are offended by you saying we

Does Multiculturalism Need Managing?

13:24

need to manage multiculturalism okay well I suspect that when people hear

13:31

that they think I'm saying it's failed and the reason why it has failed is the

13:36

fault of ethnic minorities and I think that progressives um so so the problem we

13:44

have here is that those leaning to the right will say ethnic minorities aren't doing what they should do uh you know

13:52

participate in society in a way that um we would like them to um uh you know

14:00

I I often hear them say things like you know well there weren't that many black people at some Royal event or there

14:07

weren't that many brown or black people at uh an event that uh had has to do

14:13

with um the country you know participating in loving the country uh it could be a remembrance event or it

14:20

could be um uh anything that is to do with Britain you know and then what they

14:26

say is look if if if if eth minorities aren't going to participate on that kind of level then how on Earth can we all get on with each other uh people on the

14:34

left they'll say the problem is the far right and racism um and if we don't stop

14:42

the racism then uh we're never going to be able to succeed as a country that's

14:48

how they see it um so very much with this Southport situation these are the

14:54

two views I was hearing on on Twitter and the problem is social Med media

14:59

divides everybody so uh the people on the left are only hearing from their people the people on the right are only

15:05

hearing from their people and they literally have no idea what the other one is saying they have no idea and so

15:12

those on the left for instance think I'm crazy and think what I'm saying is so deeply

15:18

misguided um and uh you know that I've

15:24

been radicalized and that um I'm a things they call me they call me a [ __ ] an idiot I'm a useful idiot for the far

15:32

right um because I'm obviously somehow so stupid that I'm just promoting the

15:38

far rights ideals um when I mean obviously I mean this is just crazy I

15:44

mean it's just mad um I've I've worked all my life in the inner city this 25

15:50

years working with brown and black kids uh set up my own School in the inner city precisely to help brown and black

15:56

kids of course there's a handful of white kids in there too um I love children of all colors and and

16:03

and and spend my life working with them to enable social Mobility better than

16:08

any other school in the country so this idea that um I somehow uh uh am helping

16:15

the far right uh is just absurd um and what I'm begging them to listen to me on

16:22

is if it's the case that I'm saying this stuff and I'm not trying to help the far right then what I'm why am I saying it

16:29

why would I put myself in the firing line like this um if if if I don't

16:34

believe that maybe you're doing something wrong and when I say doing

16:39

something wrong look it's not the fault of schools okay I need to say this schools are so difficult to run well um

16:46

it's so difficult to run well in particular in this culture uh that we

16:51

have at at the moment where parents can be very demanding where perhaps headteachers will not get the support of

16:58

the department uh for education or or from the media they're thrown into the Limelight and they're attacked left

17:05

right and Center nobody want most head teachers have a mortgage to pay they want to walk their dog and feed their

17:10

kids you know so if we live in a day and age where head teachers have to put themselves on the line in order to run a

17:17

decent school well and that is the day and age we live in then then we already are in trouble but then you've got to be

Teaching Values and Kindness

17:24

able to see beyond that so people always talk about our school we have great results we do have great

17:31

results I I think it's the least interesting thing about our school and I'm always saying this okay look results

17:37

come out in August our kids will do well I'll say isn't that great we've got you know and it'll be lovely and you know

17:44

they'll they'll get much better results than they would have got elsewhere and that's great forget about the

17:49

results look at who our kids are look at the people we have created okay now we

17:57

get over 800 visitors every year uh over 7,000 people have come to

18:02

visit the school this is not normal schools all over the world nobody gets these kinds of visitors why do we get

18:08

these visitors because through word of mouth and through social media which I think is a Force for good and bad in

18:14

this case good people have heard about us and they come and they cannot believe

18:20

what they're seeing okay these are teachers I've had teachers break down in tears who were visiting who say but how

18:25

is this possible right now A friend of mine works one of the local schools he came and he went round and he he came

18:32

bursting into my office once when he was visiting for the first time and um he's been several times since and uh he said

18:39

Katherine I've been talking to the kids and they all go to the same primary schools as our kids what have you done to them he just couldn't understand how

18:47

come they're so kind and decent how come they're so chatty and articulate how

18:53

come they're so ambitious and driven so there's something that we're doing with them right

19:00

now what are we doing and this all Taps into the multiculturalism idea

19:05

okay um so

19:11

uh people think often when it comes to schools that if you want to fix

19:18

something you need to fix that thing so what I mean is children are unhappy

19:24

let's give them happiness lessons uh children lack self-esteem let's give them self steam lessons Okay that's how

19:30

that's how we tend to think actually what we need to do is

19:37

teach the children in a more traditional fashion the reason why it needs to be more traditional and when I say traditional what I mean is teacher

19:43

standing at the front of the class leading the learning Being the adult Authority in the room holding the

19:48

children to account teaching them both knowledge and

19:54

values okay now when you do that teach them traditionally and hold to account

20:00

and give them both knowledge and values you build their happiness you build their self-esteem and you give them

20:08

values that will allow them to get on with each other and make sacrifices of

20:14

on their own individual Desires in order to help someone else or perhaps to help

20:20

their whole Community now if you get that balance right and you have that as

20:25

your goal a multicultural community can succeed and so our Multicultural

20:32

community that doesn't sound Multicultural anymore that sounds like a common culture because you you're instilling the same values amongst all

20:38

the kids that's true but and this is this is the issue so at what point do

Common Culture and Navigating Religious Expression in Schools

20:44

you allow difference okay yeah at what point do you allow difference so it's

20:49

funny because Freddy sers who is at unheard and um I uh did a I I I had a

20:56

whole conversation with him for about 40 minutes um after we were taken to court over the uh prayer issue MH and uh we

21:04

talked all about it that was last year no earli this year when you went to the high court because one of your students

21:10

Muslim student wanted to pray and you forbade it yeah exactly well I mean yes

21:16

sort of I mean basically uh they want they wanted a prayer room and we were saying no to this prayer room so

21:24

um and it's funny because I then saw Freddy later on uh at dinner you know

21:30

Weeks Later months later and um and he said well of course Catherine you don't allow anything religious in in in your

21:37

school religion you have to say no to religion at the gates and I said this not

21:42

true I haven't said that and he said well we talked about it for 40 minutes yeah yeah you do say that and I said no

21:48

I don't and I thought isn't this fascinating that he and I have had this discussion and yet that's not what I'm

21:54

saying so so what am I saying and this is my fault cuz I'm obviously not being clear

22:00

enough um what am I saying there are some religious issues that we allow in

22:06

our school I don't know the Muslim girls all wear hijabs we don't have a problem with that seat kids would wear bangal um

22:13

uh there are there are various I don't know Christian kids might have a cross underneath their their shirts I don't

22:19

mind about that well I can think of two from your school straight away which is that you have the national flag which is

22:25

of course a Christian cross in fact if it's the Union flag there's two Christian crosses there's St George

22:30

cross and St Andrew's cross yes but you also sing the national anthem which starts with God Save the King yes yes

22:36

that's true so there is religion yes I suppose so that's a very good point so you see I mean I haven't even thought

22:42

about it you've just said something to me that I haven't thought about now why haven't I thought about it so

22:49

that and that's key MH because what I haven't done is said no to religion at the gates we are a

22:56

secular Community I haven't said that what I've said is we're going to go along to get along

23:04

and if there's something that's going to prevent us from getting along and sharing in our communal spaces and

23:11

enjoying each other's company and being friends across religious and racial

23:17

divides um if anything's going to stop that from happening I'll say no to that

23:23

but I'll say yes to everything else that logistically speaking means that we can

23:28

all get on with each other mhm that that's ultimately it so why are we vegetarian because logistically for

23:35

serving meat would not have allowed us to do our family lunch and our family lunch is very important to us because of

23:40

the values that family lunch teaches and those values are more important than the

23:46

individual Community or religion's Desires in that moment and so we always

23:53

put the team above the individual so it's about finding that balance

23:59

and um okay so that I understand why and why the kids would understand the logic

24:04

there what's the logic how do you explain why they should sing the national anthem and why you would have

24:10

the British flag how do you explain that to a kid okay great question so uh we're

24:17

all British um and I what does it mean to be British yeah it's a good question I mean

24:25

when schools uh talk about British value they'll talk about the rule of law belief in democracy um and which America

24:33

have both off so just as well be American as true that's true but it couldn't be lots of lots of countries so there is a distinction to Britain no but

24:41

that's Western and that's important right that's that's an important distinction because I often think that we we forget that actually uh you know

24:48

we don't push gay people off of buildings that our police aren't corrupt in the way that you will find in so many

24:54

countries around the world so um and and I think if people traveled a bit more saw what other countries were like they

25:00

might realize just how grateful we should be for be being able to live in a country like Britain you know

25:07

um so I mean look uh there are all kinds of uh National characteristics like

25:13

joining the queue and um uh eating beans and toast you know we serve um beans on

25:20

potatoes you know you go to America they think you're a bit odd if you're eating well they don't even know what baked beans are let alone eating them on a

25:27

potato you know and that's one of our standard dishes that we eat so I I I would and that would tie in I would say

25:33

our Cuisine ties into the Traditions aspect of what it is to be a nation I'm quite Keen forgive me here exct and so other

25:40

things they stand for their head mistress at assembly you know that's British schools do that um that wouldn't

25:47

happen in most other Western countries for instance uh that is a tradition and a a ritual as you say that has been

25:54

handed down through the through through the the years um we they stand for their

25:59

head mistress this will be just after they've they've been singing God save the king or um I vow to thee my country

26:06

or Jerusalem those are the three uh pieces of music that we'll do um and and

26:13

then I tell them to sit down and then I give them an assembly uh why do we do that because I am the top of the tree at

26:19

the school and it's about creating a kind of Aura around me I'm sort of The Wizard of Oz you never know what goes on

26:26

in Miss bbal sing's office and there's a real sense of you don't want to get on Miss bble sing's list you know what is

26:32

she going to say or you know heads of year will say what would Miss Bal Singh think of that behavior that kind of

26:37

thing because you're you're creating an aura around me and I have to be very careful when I'm out and about in town

26:42

you know and sometimes there's the Red Man and I think oh I want to cross and I think are there any kids around because

26:48

I can't be seen to doing bad stuff you know IE a sense of hierarchy and

26:54

Authority yes and role modeling you know where they want to be a certain type of

27:00

person which is fantastic M but to my question about what it is to be British you look very close when you say that

27:06

you chose those three anthems yes okay so why would you choose those three anthems because obviously they're not going to sing those in America to use my

27:12

earlier example no because that seems to be closer to the thing our countries they they belong to us and you know what

27:19

that thing of belonging to us you know Roger screw uh who a great philosopher

27:24

and writer as you know uh sadly died recently um um he came to visit us H and

27:32

um he spoke to the children about fox hunting I said oh let you're you're you

27:41

believe in fox hunting I don't believe in fox hunting I said you know all about it come and tell us and persuade us that

27:46

you know fox hunting is the thing to do so he did his best um I'm not sure he convinced any

27:52

of but he did his best now he went around the school and I I genuinely

27:57

think with had real impact on him changed his mind about something which I always feel really proud of because it

28:03

was the great Roger scrutin after all and um I remember him saying to me and he he

28:09

we wrote a book after that and he gave us a quote for the book uh which said

28:15

that um it was a life-changing experience for him seeing the school because he saw brown and black children

28:22

of the inner city being taught British history as if it was theirs m and that

28:28

up until this point he had given up hope that ethnic minorities could ever be

28:34

integrated into society in such a way that we could all get on with each other right and so and and that is key but

28:42

that's different from culturalism no well let me come to that the British

28:48

history those anthems uh British ways of life of eating be big beans and so on

28:55

belong to us too right of course you say of course the thing is is that

29:01

the culture nowadays is such that it encourage us it encourages us all to see

29:07

each other as very different so in schools uh you might celebrate uh

29:14

International Day and everybody brings their flag everybody dresses in their

29:20

dress everybody brings their food right now look if that's done in amongst culture

29:29

which is shared then that's okay but I would argue that things are far more

29:35

divisive than what they should be so when you say that's not Multicultural okay look that's common culture that is

29:42

there is a common culture but there's also a multicultural situation going on because the Muslim Girls cover their

29:48

heads the other girls don't um uh the the the the seeks wear their Bangals the

29:54

other kids don't you know um there are are there are differences that we

30:01

Embrace and that we well we would never have any issue

30:06

with um but as long as those differences don't upset the whole um and but you're

30:13

and but you're absolutely right to say there has to be a common culture right there has to be and that is where the

30:21

the phrase diversity is our strength is hugely problematic um

30:31

what's diversity can be great as long as we are

30:37

managing it properly right that that's the thing and uh we need to um we need

30:46

to recognize this and I'm not you know when I say this

30:51

people get angry but I'm not blaming anybody I'm not saying it's the fault of ethnic minorities I'm not saying it's

30:57

the fault of white people I'm not saying you bloody white people why don't you uh

31:03

be more tolerant I'm not saying you bloody brown and black people why don't I'm not saying that I'm saying that if

31:10

each side and there are many sides because it's not just brown and black people white people with amongst the

31:17

brown and black people you've got the Hindus and Muslims who will fight each other you've got the um sunnis and the

31:25

Shia Muslims who will fight each other you got you got like it's much more complex so multiculturalism isn't just

31:32

ethnic minority and white it's all kinds of cultures look we all love eating sushi

31:38

and eating a curry um and these are important it's it we like it now it may

31:45

be somebody on the right was telling me well we don't need to have that to hell with all that different food we just

31:51

want what we want okay fine but you know what look before black and brown people

31:57

ever came along um uh there were problems with multiculturalism in the country

Rethinking Teaching Of History for Cultural Integration

32:03

Catholics Protestants you know remember I mean like there it is it

32:10

has always and angles and sactions the country was founded exactly where Angles and Saxons came together against the the

32:16

Vikings the the the history of Britain is one of different cultures right just

32:22

because there were no brown and black people or there were very few of them because you know there were a few um uh

32:28

just because there were only you know the black and brown people are not the problem obviously it's it's the the

32:35

issue is how do we make it so that different cultures can can get on with

32:40

each other and um yes so I agree with that so cusine seems to be a bit of a

32:46

red herring to me used from by both sides like left will say like isn't all this cusine great but and then the right

32:53

I don't know what that response necessarily would be but I'm interested in what it isn't it's important because

33:00

I'll tell you why it's important because that's an example of something that we could hang on to and we could still

33:07

share a common culture right it it's about it's not all or nothing but food

33:12

is never a why it's not going to be it's not going to be it doesn't food it might

33:18

provoke some sentiment but it doesn't in the same way that reading the anthems will or knowing our history or or

33:28

the the the kind of stories about our country the myth about our country doesn't provoke the same sort of sentiment as as what do mean provoke the

33:35

same sort of well not provokes the wrong word but evoke rather um I guess what I'm trying to say uh say is that we have

33:43

to to be part of a a nation a country we have a sense of a a commonality and part

33:49

of that commonality is is history and a sh a shared culture and food is one

33:57

aspect ECT of that what I find so interesting about what you've done with the school is that you've managed to

34:02

have all these different not just different races but different religions with drastically different cultures come

34:08

together and you've bound them together and I want to know what it is that thing that's binding them and food is one

34:15

aspect of it yeah yeah and the reason I'm pushing for this pushing on this question is because I want to know what

34:21

lessons we can get from your school apply to the whole society I'm sorry we can't apply the food thing to whole society we're not going to say to

34:27

everyone right we're going to all e the same thing no but what one the lessons we can learn from your school are about

34:34

the the history the the idea of shared history that everyone is everyone is in uh invited to participate in the history

34:42

of this land Roger scrutin you brought up earlier he said what is it to be British his answer was place it's about

34:47

this island it's about about how we're we're commune together in this island and I think I asked this question

34:53

because I think the what I see about our country is that we're falling apart along these different lines what is it

34:59

that we can all get behind and multiculturalism isn't enough because that's not a common culture that's so

35:04

that's why I'm pushing on on those questions that's right but the the reason why it's important to talk about

35:10

the food issue right to come back to it is because what the progressive is

35:16

saying there at that point is saying well this stuff's really good so what's the problem right and the the point is

35:23

that there are some differences that are

35:28

great because they're not upsetting the balance of the whole yeah there are

35:33

others that are problematic when it comes to institutions and so on now then

35:40

there's the additional point which you're saying which is yes but what can we then share together now look history

35:46

for instance is a really good um is a it's a really good uh subject to talk

35:51

about uh the way in which history is taught in our school um so our kids know a lot of

35:59

history they know a lot um you're not going to find other kids elsewhere who

36:04

know more history than our kids now that's because we teach in a traditional fashion we teach we do quizzes every

36:11

week we give lots of homework we have very high standards of behavior etc etc

36:16

um if you don't have that then your kids are not being taught very much they just can't they don't have enough there's not

36:22

enough time in the lessons to learn the the the teaching methods that are being used are not going to allow the children

36:28

to remember this stuff as well as our kids will remember it um the structures

36:34

the the the interruptions and behavior and so on it means they're not learning that much so then what are they learning

36:40

in that short period of time and what are they remembering now if they are too

36:47

often not always it'll depend on the school it'll depend on the classroom it'll depend on the history teacher but

36:52

if too often they are being taught that Britain is bad that Britain was is bad

37:00

because of its Colonial history because of slavery uh that Britain is racist in

37:07

it at its core if that's what they're learning all of the time then ethnic

37:13

minority kids grow up very very angry and resentful of their country because

37:19

this is what they're learning they're not being taught here's the whole of British history and this belongs to you

37:26

and here's some of the good and some of the bad and some of the interesting and let's talk about it and isn't it

37:31

fantastic they're not having that experience which our children are having they're having an experience which is

37:38

teaching them to feel deeply uncomfortable with their country the ethnic minorities will come out feeling

37:43

like they're hated by their country and the white kids will come out feeling deeply uncomfortable and very guilty

37:50

about their country and about their white skin and so uh where do that history

37:58

where does that come from why is that the case is it is there not is it not in the National curriculum that they need to learn a certain thing how has it got

38:04

to a place that history be is being taught in that way because it's sort of how many

38:11

people's view British history now um if you look at the textbooks um if you uh you know it's not

38:21

just textbooks that are used people create their own PowerPoints um if if just random

38:26

teachers creating power points then you are actually um well it's up to the

38:33

individual teacher we're at the mercy of how they see the world and if the teachers tend to have a very Progressive

38:40

Outlook and if they feel deeply ashamed of their country um they're going to teach it in that kind of way um and it's

38:48

entire we're at their Mercy uh you know this idea that which you sort of are

38:54

suggesting that there is a curriculum and that we all have have the same resources and that the resources are all

39:00

excellent and that we all go out there and teach in the same fashion that's not happening at all um as never happened

39:07

um so but there is a national curriculum yeah but you don't necess I

39:14

mean what does that mean there there are certain subjects that you should be teaching and even then you don't have to follow the national curriculum but even

39:20

if you did I mean look all kids will learn history at school that's all the curriculum is saying teach them some

39:25

history that's all I mean what you teach them in years seven eight and N is entirely up to you only 40% of

39:33

children then go on to take it at GCSE so their history is taught at primary

39:38

school and then in years s eight and N uh they're not held to account by any national exams on this they could be

39:44

taught anything in that time um so and if the teachers tend to feel

39:50

uncomfortable uh with their own history and British history and they teach it in such a way that makes children feel in

39:57

the way that I've said then is it any wonder that we then have problems when

40:02

they are adults and this is the sort of thing that I'm trying to say to people and and nobody's listening you're the

40:08

only one Winston you're the only one who wants to talk about this um it it's uh I feel like you

40:18

know it's a there's a pot of boiling water and the Flames are just they're increasing and increasing and increasing

40:25

and I'm saying look turn the heat down for goodness sake we need to do something different with what's

40:30

happening in our schools but nobody cares about schools uh people don't

40:36

think they're important and this is on all sides of the political spectrum they don't think they're important um they

40:42

think teachers are irrelevant um uh they think I think generally speaking people

40:50

who don't teach think that well if you failed at life you become a teacher um they don't understand how hard it is how

40:57

uh difficult it is not just to run a classroom to run a school and to you have to be countercultural to be saying

41:04

to teach in the way that I'm suggesting right um if you're just doing what everybody else is doing well you're

41:10

probably going to teach history in a way that I would find problematic are you teaching it BR British history so in the

41:17

main although also Western so we would teach the French Revolution uh American Civil Rights for instance because we

41:25

want them to have a general sense imagine was teaching the French Revolution in a positive light I remember not at your school well I

41:31

assume not in your school well what I don't even know if they're

41:38

teaching it and if they are do the kids remember it I don't know I don't think

41:43

people who don't teach don't realize how little is actually taught in schools in

41:50

the time that they have got if you've got one history lesson a week or possibly two where you actually manage

41:56

to get about 30 40 minutes of teaching time if you're lucky where half the kids

42:01

aren't really listening anyway where kids are on their phones or have earphones in and so on what are they

42:07

learning if you're not using the correct teaching methods that will ensure that the children remember what you're

42:13

teaching them children then learn their history from Tik Tok that's where they're learning their history okay so

42:20

there's the there's the way in which we're teaching our children what the resources are how we're teaching them

42:26

quite Poss to hate their country or to feel hated by their country and and what

42:32

are the solutions to that then well this is it it it is complex isn't it um at

42:39

the moment I'm trying the on a very basic level I'm just trying to get people to see the importance of schools

42:45

and why children matter right I'm just trying to get everyone to understand this is on the right and the left that

42:53

we need to look to our schools um that yes we need to deal with adults now I

42:59

understand that but the future of the country is in the hands of the children and in the hands of our teachers right

43:07

the biggest threat to the country is what is being taught in schools and not

43:12

just so we talked about history and we talked about knowledge so our geography curriculum is all about place and

43:18

Britain and children understanding their British geography right now so it's not

The Importance of School Culture in Shaping Society

43:23

just that values we need to come under values okay because that they're they're the biggest thing

43:29

okay so we actively teach the children kindness gratitude

43:35

self-sacrifice uh a a a sense of decency

43:41

um so what do I mean by that um every lunch hour when we do our family lunch

43:47

at the end of it they have to stand up and they have to give an appreciation to a room full of 200 people I'd like to

43:52

give an appreciation to my dad for waking me up this morning and then we all go on the count of 2 one two and we

43:58

all clap now why do we do that and it's not just

44:04

gratitude uh announced publicly it's also privately we write we get the kids to write postcards to their teachers to

44:10

Express gratitude for being taught x y and Zed because no matter how poor you are

44:16

how difficult life is how challenging things are uh you should be grateful for what you've got um and you should be

44:22

grateful because you have more than somebody else but you should be grateful because gratitude makes us happy okay

44:30

now um and this is where so they put on happiness lessons no no no no no

44:36

happiness is a byproduct right it's through so all the self-help books out

44:42

there all of them and I've read loads of them and not for me but I read them because I think isn't it funny this is

44:47

exactly what we're doing at mcka and I read them to show my staff to explain to them why do we do this okay uh all of

44:56

those self-help books talk about the same values that we're teaching our kids so when people have their breakdown at

45:01

45 you know midlife crisis and say what's the point of life Etc and they get those books had they gone to

45:07

Michaela they wouldn't be having that midlife crisis okay because they would have had instilled in them to make it a

45:15

habit of who they are uh the sense of kindness towards others so as an

45:22

example kid drops his plate or actually the whole tub of lasagna that he's

45:28

taking back to the um vegetarian lasagna obviously um taking back to the front

45:34

and he's carrying it and let's say it all falls and loads of lasagna goes everywhere in many other schools es with

45:41

a challenging intake what would happen at that point is the kids would all start

45:46

going that's what they do right my school yeah okay right right so you remember

45:52

exactly and it's horrible because they're laughing at the kid right and it it's not nice it's not kind at our

45:59

school if that were to happen well and it has happened five or

46:04

six kids will run I've seen kids put their fingers into wet lasagna to pick

46:11

it up off the floor and put it in the tin because they want to help their

46:17

their classmate now I've seen that a hundred times over in many different ways okay now what motivates them to do

46:24

that what motivates them to go ah my classmates's in trouble as opposed to

46:30

right kindness gratitude decency right a

46:36

sense of personal responsibility for my behavior that I need to be a decent

46:41

person now children need to be habituated in

46:49

the this behavior and in in these values okay so the the problem self-help books

46:56

have is that they they get to you too late you know you're reading them at 25

47:01

or at 45 and then it's all oh yeah right okay this is revolutionary write down five things that I'm grateful for at the

47:07

end of the day okay I'll start doing that now why do they do that why do they say that they say that because they want

47:13

a ritual daily ritual of forcing you to think about what you're grateful for we

47:18

get the kids to stand up and give appreciations a daily ritual these feelings these values need to be

47:26

habituated okay now if you do that in children when they're young they'll keep

47:32

that for the rest of their lives now obviously there are bad eggs obviously

47:37

not all children who are habituated in this way does it necessarily work

47:43

with I say that every single one of our child moves from here to here now some

47:48

of them move even further right but every single one of them is a better person for having been at Michaela

47:53

there's no question now I do worry about when they leave us how much of that will they lose how much will they ping to the

47:59

to the in the direction that I think the media and Society ends up stoking you

48:06

know the division that we talk about um because diversity is our strength you

48:13

know what are these values that we should be and you say what is the common culture well that that I just talked

48:18

about a sense of personal responsibility you haven't done your homework well you're not blaming the bus it's your

48:23

responsibility right once you get that when you're in the workplace later and

48:29

you don't don't deliver something you're not going to your boss well it was so so fault it was so so fault you your your response is it's on me sorry my fault

48:37

right do you think it's unfair for me to think that traditionally schools would have got those values from Biblical

48:44

scripture and this pushes me to the question I think is a part of it is that are is Britain a Christian country which

Is Britain A Christian Country? & Confronting White Guilt

48:52

is a very difficult question because obviously we are we have multi many

48:58

religions we have 4 million Muslims for example uh who British Muslims and so is

49:04

the common culture to do with Christianity do you think how important is that to us I mean as I said earlier

49:10

there's Christian aspects to Mela even if it's very subtle and and and underneath yes um well the country's uh

49:20

history has been Christian um and so clearly those judeo-christian Val values

49:27

are everywhere um I think we often take them for granted um in our society I

49:33

think um uh progressives will uh they just assume that well everybody thinks

49:39

like this this is normal it's not normal it's been normalized in the country through us having a history of

49:47

Christianity um and it's we Christianity has done such a good job we don't even realize that it's not normal at all that

49:55

Romans when they had a baby they didn't want they just used to leave the baby out in the sun to die you know that uh

50:02

the idea of of of being kind to your neighbor why would you do that you want to kill him so you can take what he has

50:08

you know like like that that is normal what we have here in the west is not

50:15

normal and that's why we should be grateful for it and we should appreciate it um so yes our values at Michaela are

50:23

Judo judeo-christian in their in their beliefs and in their ways because that's

50:29

those are the values that we've all grown up with um does that does that yes for your non-Christian students is that

50:36

a is that a problem is is there every difficulty there friction there no never

50:42

no but then I'm we're not going around saying this is judeo Christian you better do what we say I mean this is

50:49

just what the school is and nobody's going to say well it's wrong to teach

50:54

children kindness it's wrong to teach them gratitude the children love us you know they love the school um the parents love the

51:01

school they know how much the children are learning and how happy they are everyone who comes to visit the school I

51:07

mean this is the thing you don't want to believe me about the school anyone out there listening come and visit us just sign up on the website come and see what

51:13

we do see how happy the children are um and how most importantly they are

51:19

friends with each other across racial and religious divides that they don't think about who is what from where what

51:26

religion they are and so on it's just they don't care now and they don't care

51:32

because we share in this community and we are all kind to each other um if on

51:39

the other hand in a school uh things so somebody called me

51:46

authoritarian the other day and I am everything I know I know it's very

51:51

unfair isn't it so the thing is I am that way with kids I believe we know

51:57

better as adults and I think we need to impose those values on children MH

52:03

um so I think Elon Musk is wrong when it comes to kids when it comes to schools

52:09

why is he wrong he thinks that uh as many people do on the right because

52:14

they're Libertarians um he thinks that it's wrong to teach children what and

52:20

that you need to teach children how teach them how to think is what everybody says don't teach them what to

52:25

think you have to teach them what to think I thought no you made this point

52:31

fantastically on Jordan's EP uh podcast I think it's a brilliant point and actually if you just the more knowledge

52:37

the less likely you are to get caught into ideologies because you have these other facts not just knowledge and I

52:43

didn't make this clear enough with with right I didn't it was I I I was annoyed

52:49

with myself afterwards look uh and it's you know your listeners

52:54

that can listen to the Jordan Peterson podcast stuff about knowledge we need to teach them two

53:01

things knowledge and values right and I didn't push that point on the values what we don't do is say to kids

53:09

there's this thing called Murder some people think it's good some people think it's bad you decide we don't do that

53:16

what we do is we say murder is wrong and you should not murder we also

53:22

say uh hitting your toddler friend is wrong no no don't do that that's wrong

53:29

that's bad no right yeah and then when they say I want that no don't grab we

53:35

don't grab say please we tell them what to say we tell them what to do this idea

53:43

that we should just let them do whatever they want and just teach them how to think how do you teach a three-year-old how to think that's

53:51

insane it really is and the thing is people on the right are saying it people

53:56

on the left are saying it you know I've always said that the the Spectrum the Left Right spectrum is a circle right it

54:02

is not a a line so people say far right far left no no no no far right far left

54:09

that that's what or horseshoe whatever that's what's going on right and the Libertarians don't realize how

54:16

much they are playing into the hands of the far-left because they're just saying let everybody be free let them do

54:22

whatever they want and then the far-left fill those vacuums the culture vacuums and um and we are where we are

54:31

and I say where we are where we are and and I and I do hold uh the the

54:36

progressive Outlook responsible um and I really hope some

54:42

progressives listen to this although I don't know if they will you know but I really hope that they will um they're

54:49

responsible for what exactly okay so if we

54:59

are if as a white person um you feel bad about your

55:07

privilege and if that feeling has you doing things that you perhaps wouldn't

55:13

have done otherwise or saying things that you wouldn't have said otherwise that skew things for all of us

55:22

um so um now look I I understand why white

55:28

people might feel like this because they're being made to feel like that because that's the narrative uh Britain is bad Colonial history is bad Britain

55:36

is racist you're a racist if you think X or Y you don't want to be a racist because racism these days has been

55:44

um it's now got the power of I don't

55:52

know it's worse than anything like the idea of being called a racist you'd rather be called a murderer than be

55:58

called a racist you you you simply cannot be that thing and

56:03

so you'll avoid it as a white person and look some genuinely decent white people

56:09

who are progressives they want to make it so

56:15

that multiculturalism can succeed and they think that the problem lies with them they think that the problem lies

56:21

with white people not being understanding enough or not being uh

56:26

liberal-minded enough uh being too racist and so they then think well what

56:32

do I need to do and they're told what you need to be is anti-racist and if you think these things if you believe in uh

56:39

Dei if you change the things that you you know it's wrong for you to hold on

56:45

to the idea that uh baked beans on toast is a good idea or it's wrong for you to

56:51

think that the royal family is important or whatever it is they then go okay okay

56:56

cuz white people are ma are being made to feel deeply uncomfortable about who they are and um that's not helpful for

57:05

them or for ethnic minorities and it's certainly not helpful for us all getting on with each other I think it's even worse than that and I think part of the

57:11

reaction and the push back we're seeing now amongst let's say Patriot types yes

57:16

exactly is that they see that their kids are getting taught that they their white

57:22

kids have privilege whatever but they also look at the statistics and see oh white workingclass kids are the least

57:29

successful in school in education and they don't want their kids to be treated differently from anyone else they

57:35

consider it their country and they think it's absurd and that actually builds up resentment and then the then the next

57:41

step in the danger the next danger in that line of thinking is okay well we need to prioritize the white kids now as

57:48

reaction which is I think has come from progressivism and maybe it's an answer to the question that's right everything you're saying absolutely that the

57:54

progressive idea is judging people by different racial ID or ethnic identities

58:00

means that you're going to put get resentment amongst whites that's right look look at the the run in the the the

58:08

campaign for the Democrats in in America it's entirely on racial lines white men for Kamala black women for Kamala back

58:15

to the Democrat Roots I mean indeed like it it's so frightening all of this

58:21

discussion on what Kamala is is she Asian is she black who the hell cares it's just crazy I want to know what her

58:28

policies are I want to know what kind of person she is what are her values what do she think's important I I just look

58:36

and it's funny because for me it's interesting because Kamala being her mom is from India her dad is from Jamaica my

58:44

mom is from Jamaica my father is indog gyane so for the first time some famous

58:49

person is my background basically you know Heritage racial Heritage you feel like she represents your ideas well this

58:56

what so crazy I totally disagree with everything Camala has to say I mean like

59:02

and but but but it's neat it's quite neat I think oh well there's somebody with my Heritage so it's not completely

59:08

meaningless your heritage obviously it means something but it's just it's just quite cute that's all and so we're

59:16

losing sight of what's really important and um and we're losing so when I say

Managing Multiculturalism in Schools and Society

59:24

multiculturalism needs to be managed it needs a muscular management you know in the way that we do

59:30

it and it's not just that multiculturalism needs management schools need management right but isn't

59:37

managing schools managing multiculturalism and this is actually different to how I came into this

59:42

conversation I mistook you saying manage managing multiculturalism as another way

59:49

of saying finding common culture which actually that's separate things it's like there's managing multiculturalism

59:55

and there is finding common culture to unify us as a people have I misunderstood that yeah I think that's

1:00:01

right I think I think what you just said there is right at the end yeah isn't it interesting you know when I say about

1:00:08

Freddy and that conversation I had and he Mis we misunderstood each other you and I

1:00:14

like these ideas are so complex it's really hard to drill down into them look

1:00:21

managing yes I think schools need to manage multiculturalism I think the media and Society needs to manage

1:00:29

multiculturalism um and we don't do that by separating kids

1:00:35

looko kids are separated like it's not just in America like it's not as bad here but there's the LGBT group there's

1:00:43

the Muslim group there's the Hindu group there's the black Caribbean group now it

1:00:48

may not be done uh officially although some groups will be created officially by certain groups um they'll say this is

1:00:55

our LG btq day for instance and so on as opposed to we we're all children together um they when we divide children

1:01:03

into groups like that they identify with their tribe right and

1:01:12

when if black people are on Twitter and they're only looking at black Twitter then they only see black people and

1:01:19

they're only identifying as a black person as opposed to but I'm British and

1:01:25

I'm British before I'm black right I'm a black British person like and that's and

1:01:30

that's great and you could be a Muslim British person and you can be a Hindu British person and you can be a white British person

1:01:37

right and there will be differences we may eat some different foods uh we may

1:01:42

wear different clothes um but there is a common culture under which we survive

1:01:49

and get on with but we are unable as a country to articulate what that is and I'm just going to emphasize this I agree

1:01:55

with that not only is that a problem which we see we've seen this month but if current migration Mass migration

1:02:01

levels are what they are which is roughly 700,000 net a year gross 1.2 million so we're importing so many

1:02:08

people or welc or rather inviting so many people on you know what I'm about

1:02:13

to say on this huge level into this country at a way that we couldn't possibly yes assimilate or integrate

1:02:19

like we used to where there was was a time assimilation wasn't didn't mean getting rid of your culture it means

1:02:24

being part of the culture yeah yeah so the problem we've got as a country is we can't come together and even Define what

1:02:30

it is to be British although I think you've kind of done that with your school some of the things it's kind of History

1:02:37

it'ses Traditions which I think Cuisine comes under the tradition aspect yes yes yes yes and if we can't as a nation

1:02:44

articulate what those things are what what hope do we have of dealing with what we're seeing on the society level

1:02:51

which is horrific like it's really terrifying we're seeing all these anything and and sorry for me to pull

1:02:57

out back to that but I think that's what's so important about what you've done at the Michaela it's it's it's

1:03:03

bloody if not an example at least a bloody attempt yes to unite everyone

1:03:08

it's an example I think it's an example it's an example I think that we should all learn from and um that's why I say

1:03:14

our results are not that interesting I mean they are but actually it's it's who our kids are and how they get on with

1:03:20

each other and how they're not divided and how they're willing to sacrifice things that are important to themselves for the betterment of the whole that

1:03:27

they get that the team is more important than the individual you know

1:03:32

that it's so important and it's and it's so important for us to recognize that

1:03:39

that this needs to happen when they are children so what look your point about immigration

1:03:46

100% like I agree with you 100% uh it's crazy to have so many people coming in

1:03:51

from outside who have different values and different cultures and so on and then how on Earth do we them and it's a real problem um I I agree with that I

1:03:59

think sadly when people hear me say manage multiculturalism they think I mean all these brown and black people

1:04:05

they're a major problem I mean and that's not what I'm saying um and neither are you saying that all

1:04:13

immigration is bad you're just saying too much immigration is bad because it upsets the whole we come back to that

1:04:20

right I'm not even quite saying that but but let's say I am okay we're H I am anyway I'm happy with any number of

1:04:27

things any number of diversity issues different types of food different

1:04:33

types of dress uh different types of dancing we all love salsa dancing and so on right all of that happy with all

1:04:39

kinds of differences different types of religion I'm happy with mosques and churches and

1:04:46

temples I don't mind that it's fine as long as it doesn't upset the

1:04:51

whole right happy with immigration as long as the number don't upset the happiness of the whole

1:04:58

so I think that is but they are in both cases yes no no absolutely and so that

1:05:03

needs to change but what's important that I think I think people on the right

1:05:10

now get distracted by the IM the immigration conversation I I'm not

1:05:15

saying it's not right and true and they're you know I I agree okay but if

1:05:21

you're constantly only looking at that and only talking about that you're missing the big issue that's going on

1:05:30

that in our schools right now children are there being taught or being immersed

1:05:37

in a culture that is teaching them either to hate themselves or to hate their country or that their country hates them and they are becoming the

1:05:44

adults so yes you have adults coming in from outside who don't get the culture

1:05:49

but you've got our own people here both white and non-white who are also so not

1:05:57

loving their country and buying into the national culture because it's all going

1:06:02

wrong when they were younger in their schools so it's not just an immigration

1:06:07

problem you know the the the people I'm even more pessimistic now than when we

1:06:14

started and this is what I'm trying to tell people I'm trying to you know and I'm riging alarm Bells here right look

1:06:21

and I'm ringing alarm bells for those on the right who don't tend to understand that point but I'm also ringing alarm

1:06:26

bells for those on the left who I know they want what's best I know

1:06:32

they want everybody to get on but we can't just kid ourselves into getting

1:06:37

along we can't just pretend that we're all getting along when we're clearly not what I found so bizarre about

1:06:43

discussions that I would have on Twitter is that they would be going on about the far right and how terrible it is and so on but how dare you say that

1:06:50

multiculturalism needs to be managed and I'd say but the fact that the far right exists just shows it's that is that is

1:06:56

proof of the fact that we need to manage multiculturalism right because if if we were all getting along

1:07:03

happily then we wouldn't be having riots right like obviously we're not and and

1:07:09

where I need to push back on the Progressive is when they sort of just say yeah but they're Psychopaths when they label them the far

The Emergence of The ‘Far-right’ & UK Riots

1:07:16

right I'll tell you what the problem is with that look I mean yes there were far-right groups that were involved and

1:07:22

yes uh you know it's bad to be on the far right and you know people say well you need to condemn it I condemn that

1:07:28

right absolutely I think that the people who are involved in those riots should be punished it's absolutely Dreadful I'm

1:07:34

the strictest headmistress in Britain clearly I think people need to be held to account for their behavior

1:07:41

however there's also people who will be involved there who are not necessarily

1:07:46

part of those farri groups and what I mean by that who may have rioted even who won't have been

1:07:53

part of those farri groups because there and so and so throws a brick and

1:07:59

you get you get H up in the moment and you throw a brick and you go yeah yeah well no I go further than that is that

1:08:04

they're not necessarily we don't know what their politics are and if their politics are who they elected they're labor so they're not far right

1:08:10

politically but it's when three of our daughters yes are exactly and by the way

1:08:15

this isn't just happened out of nowhere this is in the context of the grooming gangs I think that's happened for

1:08:21

decades up and down the country and all the what can you expect of men who have been told constantly no we're not going

1:08:29

to do anything about the fact that your daughters are raped groomed and sometimes killed yes exactly and and and

1:08:34

we can talk about like the plus sides of immigration but let's talk about the negatives the plus sides might be that we draw against Switzerland in the Euros

1:08:41

the negatives also include the grooming gangs that that wouldn't have happened if there wasn't why you want to push back on you positives are well for

1:08:48

instance you have me as a headress I'm me you know you have lots of ethnic minorities

1:08:55

who are you know you go to a a hospital you're hard pushed to find a white doctor you know there's they're all

1:09:01

brown and black you know like like the fact is the the ethnic minorities contribute massively to society you know

1:09:07

so we don't want to say that that's not the case um but but so I I made this point to to be that all of these people

1:09:14

that we're called fire right and if they're if they're engaging in political violence then it's probably a Justified

1:09:19

to call them far right but a lot of them we don't know what their politics are they might not have any politics and they're just angry men who are that

1:09:25

their daughters are being and we don't know who is what that that's exactly that's exactly right we don't know and there will be some who are part of fire

1:09:32

groups fine but there's a whole bunch of them who are angry and are reacting and

1:09:37

then I I I suppose what the progressive would say is but yes but they threw uh bricks at at the MOs MOS you know which

1:09:44

by the way just for clarity of anyone's listening I agree with you they should be punished it's not acceptable ever political violence is never acceptable

1:09:50

just for that exactly it's awful um and it's interesting because when try and

1:09:56

find as you are want to talk about the explanations for why this is happening

1:10:01

I'm told by progressives that I'm excusing their behavior and I'm saying

1:10:06

no of course I'm not I'm the strictest headmistress in Britain I am not excusing their behavior I'm trying to

1:10:12

find explanations why am I trying to find those explanations not to say that it's okay for them to behave that way

1:10:19

but so that there aren't more and more of these incidents happening in the future MH because if if I don't if we

1:10:26

don't find the if we don't understand the explanation and if we don't

1:10:31

accurately pinpoint what's going wrong in our country then things are going to get worse and worse um some months ago I

1:10:39

talked about multiculturalism at the arc Conference in October last year uh is a

1:10:46

10-minute um little speech I gave which some of your listeners might want to listen to and I I talk about exactly

1:10:53

this multiculturalism how to make it work and the reason I did that and the reason I keep talking about

1:10:59

multiculturalism is because I very much feared what would happen which is

1:11:06

exactly what has happened that uh the the far right starts to get angry and

1:11:12

starts taking notice that people who are not part of the far right get join up

1:11:18

with the far right in in in political violence um and that others then get

1:11:25

drawn into that even more so because they have nowhere to go because they feel nobody is representing them and

1:11:30

nobody is listening to their issues you know and um what I keep trying to say to

1:11:36

the progressives is listen we ha we we have to get a hold of this because if if

1:11:41

we're just blind and constantly saying but everything's great the diversity is our strength we're we're all happy this

1:11:48

is going to get worse and worse and eventually I I don't even know I don't I don't know I mean I genuinely I live

1:11:55

in in in a sort of genuine fear about what's going to happen yeah likewise which is why I wanted to have this

1:12:02

conversation what do you think the root causes are for what we saw in

1:12:08

Southpaw look there as with anything there will be a whole variety of different causes I wouldn't want to

1:12:14

Discount you know this idea that um the far right uh that there will have been some of them who organized and decided

1:12:21

to stir up uh sensitivities um that were those rumors going around about who it was and so on

1:12:29

um that uh you know there was that aspect but then we also need to ask

1:12:36

ourselves but why were various people uh

1:12:41

easily um uh inspired to participate in

1:12:46

political violence um you see where where the reason why I'm so reluctant to just go oh it's the far right um is

1:12:54

because that absolves all of us from um having to think about it and having to

1:13:02

um think about the future and think what's the vehicle for the future um all

1:13:07

the things that you said if these men feel that um they are not represented their views

1:13:14

are not represented that their children are being taught things in schools that they wouldn't necessarily agree with

1:13:21

that uh that their children are at risk um when a country is unable to protect

1:13:28

uh its own children you know like it it is just so I mean those fames I can't

1:13:35

imagine the horror and it's not just the three girls who sadly were murdered all

1:13:42

of those children for the rest of their lives they will be affected by that I I

1:13:47

I I just I can't I can't it it's just it is so horrifying um I just you know I'm

1:13:55

so horrified by it when it happened I didn't even comment on it I didn't know what to say yeah I just thought I can't even put the Tweet out because it

1:14:02

somehow it diminishes the the the it's just so awful I mean and

1:14:10

it it's so awful especially in a in a in a day and age when you know I'm very

1:14:16

much a a believer in allowing children to have some bits of freedom to don't

1:14:21

leave them on social media at home you know get them out playing football take them to a dance class you know I just

1:14:29

honestly I um I I I I find it so upsetting anyway I mean I I just

1:14:38

uh that is so upsetting but then what is equally upsetting is that I feel like

1:14:44

we're just running off a cliff because um because social media media divides us

1:14:50

we're not listening to each other at all um

1:14:56

the the progressives desperately need to to to know what's going on what how

1:15:01

ordinary people feel and if they just label everybody as far right or they don't want to listen to them because

1:15:06

it's GB news you know the way in which they talk about GB news is if it's just a bunch of Nazis you know talk radio you

1:15:14

know I I just I

1:15:20

I the progressives should really do that because they're basically pushing

1:15:25

everyone who doesn't agree with the progressive view into these arms and so if they want to be part of the

1:15:32

conversation about what exactly how to deal with the problems they need to engage with the problems if we want to

1:15:39

stop they as you say they're pushing these people in that direction and and so the fringes then will go further

1:15:46

further in that direction and then we how do we come back from this you know I don't know what we do I mean at the look

1:15:53

I I have to just you know we we all have to just um think what small things can

How We Can Improve Society With Schools

1:15:58

we achieve that my small little dream at the moment is to try and explain to people schools are really important kids

1:16:05

matter what they think matters the habits the values the knowledge that we give them matters and all of that then

1:16:13

helps us see what things will be like in five years in 10 years that our schools are huge look I think in the 1950s

1:16:21

everybody would have understood what I'm saying it would have just been normal people would not have thought of schools as merely vehicles to get results okay

1:16:29

they they just wouldn't have thought like that there was no National curriculum there was no um uh uh uh set

1:16:36

of national you know the you set of national exams that the school is being held to account for you as an individual

1:16:44

did what you could do and then you took your exams right it the school would

1:16:50

have understood that its job wasn't just let's get as high a a grade as we can on

1:16:55

the leak tables the school would have been the school mistress in her classroom would have been thinking how

1:17:02

do I develop my children to have those judeo-christian values that I was

1:17:07

talking about personal responsibility a sense of Duty towards others a personal sacrifice when you know thinking about

1:17:13

the whole kindness gratitude all of these she would have been instilling that in her children because she would

1:17:19

have known that it was her responsibility to create those children into some that you would be proud of

1:17:27

later when they are adults um I think we've lost that in education very much

1:17:33

so uh and that that way of thinking you could talk about that entirely in

1:17:39

isolation away from multiculturalism couldn't you like that all of that stuff I've just spoken about you could do it

1:17:44

and not talk about multiculturalism but all of those values

1:17:50

immediately help multiculturalism to succeed you know that that's the thing

1:17:56

and and and where you know I've been very critical of progressors what would I be critical of the people on the on the right

1:18:01

for one they talk incessantly about immigration I understand I agree

1:18:08

but I I just think they're missing something when they're only talking about that when you say they're missing

1:18:13

something by only talking about that do you mean to say that that's not going to sort all the

1:18:20

problems out or okay so that's right and they're not seeing

1:18:26

so the man who you know the perpetrator of the Southport incident was brought up

1:18:33

in Wales um born in Cardiff Axel muga Ruda kubana is of Rwanda

1:18:41

Heritage so he went to school now I'm not saying it's a school's fault okay I'm not saying that

1:18:49

I'm saying that there is a culture in our country

1:18:55

in our schools which teaches children either to hate their country to hate uh to feel

1:19:04

their country hates them to feel very ashamed of who they are if they're white

1:19:11

um and that is not helpful for white people or for black and brown people and

1:19:19

uh it means that people do stuff and say

1:19:24

say stuff that they wouldn't otherwise have done and said um

1:19:32

and the values that I talk about in schools if we understand that

1:19:41

the kids coming through our schools you know how many people understand that children that you know I've just

1:19:47

explained to you about how history is taught and how little of it is taught and how actually kids are learning their history on Tik Tok and how many how many

1:19:55

how many people get that how many people know what's going on on the right they don't have any idea and so they talk

1:20:02

about the stuff that's obvious right that's in the media I'm saying that it's

1:20:07

the stuff underneath the carpet that we have to be looking at about our

1:20:12

institutions people talk about the march on the institutions and so on right that that's important the

1:20:19

institutions create our society schools are the most important place for our the

1:20:27

future of the country we should care about what's going on in our schools we should be interested nobody's interested

1:20:33

nobody cares I find that even parents to some extent don't care now what I mean by that is not our parents Michaela I'm

1:20:40

just saying parents across the country what do I mean by that everybody cares when their kid is in your six got to get

1:20:47

him into a decent school got to get him into decent school oh ofstead say this school's outstanding oh I've got him in there brilliant that's it that's all M

1:20:55

when your kid comes home from at the end of the day at school do you know what's happened how's your day darling fine

1:21:02

okay dinner's at 6 that that that's what you don't have any idea what are they being taught

1:21:08

what's their homework is it the right homework what have they been taught to hate their country that day what do you know I mean you have absolutely no

1:21:16

idea what is being what your child is doing all day in school and so and nobody cares right

1:21:25

parents sort of just want to get them into a good school whatever that means and then once they've done that they think it's okay and I mean the parents

1:21:32

who can pay for Education they think oh I've got him into a good private school he's fine how do you know that yeah

1:21:38

right right and I'm saying we all have to be interested in what's happening in schools not just with regard to the

1:21:43

multiculturalism issue with regard to everything what are they being taught what knowledge are they being taught what values are they being Tau those two

1:21:50

things if we get that right we are far more like to succeed as a country not

1:21:56

just because multiculturalism would succeed but because everybody would be a

1:22:01

lot smarter in their jobs everybody would be a lot more knowledgeable about history that's why Elon Musk is wrong

1:22:08

the reason the reason why he says teach them how to think it's because he's worried because kids are being taught

1:22:13

what to think and they're being taught bad things right and he knows that he's worried that they're being

1:22:19

taught you know the British were evil slavers and

1:22:25

uh and that's it and they're not being taught that the British um uh abolish

1:22:30

slavery for instance right so he's saying teach them how to think but that doesn't even mean anything I think that's not actually would be the concern

1:22:36

of let's say I don't know about Elon Musk but it's it's close but it would be more

1:22:42

like uh K our kids are being taught that everything is a power Dynamic I postmodernist and there's an oppression

1:22:47

oppressed and so when they think that our kids are being taught how to think as in to see the world as an oppressive

1:22:53

oppressed and and so the answer is we need to teach them how to think that's not that way of thinking but notice how

1:23:00

that is just teaching kids what to think right right yeah that is simply to teach them what to think just like murder is

1:23:07

wrong hitting your friend is wrong um you know you need you need to find out

1:23:15

lots of knowledge on something before you make a decision about it and not just assume that uh the world is in

1:23:21

these two categories of oppressor and and and and victim uh that is to teach

1:23:27

them what to think uh Elon is just disagreeing with what they are currently being taught and he's quite right to be

1:23:34

disagreeing with that um what do we do about it well I mean

1:23:39

look at the very least the first step is to get people to understand the importance of schools what do we do

What Does Labour Gov Mean For Schools

1:23:45

we've got a new labor government what should they be doing what would your message be to them and how they should

1:23:53

manage manager education maybe even a broader question is what do you think are you hopeful or more pessimistic with

1:23:59

the labor government coming in um what what does that mean for education in Britain well it's hard to say I mean

1:24:06

obviously they're new Kier starmer I don't you know I'm I judge people on what they say and what they do

1:24:13

um I I do worry though I worry that

1:24:20

[Music] um I

1:24:28

I I I worry look white Guild um and I'm not saying well I am

1:24:36

saying i' I see more of that in the labor party for instance you know taking

1:24:41

the knee in 2020 and so on um that was

1:24:47

that would that that I think white people take the knee because of white guilt um and I know how much

1:24:54

damage white guilt does uh because it influences every decision that is made

1:25:01

not just political decisions but personal decisions everything it's there all of the time and it influences our

1:25:08

culture so I'm not talking about Labor policies necessarily I'm just saying

1:25:14

that if the people in charge are are riddled with white guilt and I say if

1:25:20

because I don't know for certain how much but I do know for instance that kir St took the knee and that makes me go oh

1:25:27

I don't like that and the reason I don't like that is that it makes me worry

1:25:32

about how much guilt is inside him because I know that as a leader if he

1:25:37

has lots of white guilt he will make a poor leader because culturally he will make decisions that

1:25:44

are not good decisions because they'll necessarily be influenced by this

1:25:50

knowing guilt in him which will make him do things that

1:25:55

will will deal with that guilt perhaps giving him an image of somebody who's an

1:26:01

anti-racist giving him an image of somebody who uh loves diversity um

1:26:09

because if you don't love diversity therefore you're a racist then you couldn't possibly ever be a racist because that's unacceptable therefore

1:26:15

I'm going to do things and say things that I wouldn't normally have done if it weren't for this white guilt that well

1:26:22

I'd call it bring to make that super relevant to this month his first month as prime minister we had yesterday at

1:26:29

time of recording he gave a press conference in response to the riots that

1:26:34

happen in Southport but this month we've also had riots as I mentioned earlier in hair Hills in White Chapel in Rochdale

1:26:42

none of which was white people or British indigenous or whatever you want to call it yes there was no such press conference but there's a different

1:26:48

standard here now it might be as you say white Gil or it might be that he's swimming in these ideological Waters

1:26:53

that's right that are adjacent to the white guilt ideology I guess yeah

1:26:58

possibly anyway I'm just just to color what you just said the waters like that's important the the waters that we

1:27:04

are in culture each strategy for breakfast right that and so it's all

1:27:10

about say that again culture eats what strategy for breakfast it's it's one of those quotes that you know some Guru

1:27:15

some business Guru or something I don't know that's what they say culture eat strategy for breakfast that's a great yeah that's exactly right that's what's

1:27:21

happening yeah and and and and anyone who runs an organization you've always got to look at your culture so we wrote

1:27:27

a book our teachers at school we wrote a book called The Power of culture where each one of my teachers writes a different chapter um I don't

1:27:36

strategize I manage my culture at school that's what I'm doing all the time and

1:27:41

my worry it's the same for the country our leaders should be managing the culture and if the culture is being

1:27:50

managed by people who swim in the waters of white guilt and who feel that white guilt themselves we're in trouble now I

1:27:59

don't know how much I don't know with K ster I don't know you make the point about the different um riots and so on I

1:28:08

and I don't know enough about the different riots I I just don't know enough to be able to comment um uh

1:28:14

properly on that so I don't know I I do I do worry I worry because so many white

Division, White Guilt and Modern Racism

1:28:21

people are affected by this white guilt you almost you have to be exceptional not to have white guilt um because it's

1:28:28

not their fault it's that um everybody tells you need to be guilty and all the

1:28:34

white fragility and why I'm not speaking to white people about race and all those books are everywhere you go into water

1:28:39

stones and you see them all laid out and so those are the books that you should read and if you turn on Netflix it's all

1:28:45

about you know race is everywhere these days I I miss the 1990s I really do uh

1:28:52

it wasn't like this and exactly I didn't know then just how lucky we were I didn't realize how it

1:28:59

could change how H and the thing is my young staff who are 23 24 whatever 26 28

1:29:08

I mean I I have to keep saying to them you

1:29:13

don't know what it was like I remember what it was like and it was different now look I have to say in the ' 80s

1:29:21

there was I mean and in the '90s but especially in the ' 80s I remember there was some serious racism you know and racism that I suffered from at school

1:29:27

and so on you know so you know I'm not saying it was all glorious

1:29:35

but I kind of preferred that racism wow yeah I kind of I kind of did

1:29:42

you kind of just knew how to deal with it and you just yeah I kind of preferred that I

1:29:49

mean I say kind of you know I don't know I mean obviously as a kid growing up it was hard to be called names and so on

1:29:55

you know racis you don't mean the riots you mean the kind of racism you exper in the 1980s yeah yeah I mean I preferred

1:30:02

that racism to this weird racism that exists now when I say weird racism what

1:30:07

I mean is the kind of condescension that comes from the progressives towards me

1:30:14

uh calling me a useful idiot and so on uh their refusal to listen to anyone who

1:30:21

doesn't think like them their Des desire to absolve themselves with their white

1:30:26

guilt and therefore saying any number of things about race um just tell me what

1:30:33

to say I'll say it just don't call me a racist kind of thing you know uh I

1:30:40

am yeah it's it's um it's problematic I don't I don't know I don't know how fix

1:30:46

this in I brought up the only time race would ever be bought up is if you were let's say quickly identifying people but

1:30:52

essentially we were color blind and then all this stuff comes up over the last let's say 10 years and it

1:30:58

trains you to race that's it so I I remember trying to like understand this new Progressive ideology I read all the

1:31:05

woke Literature Like tanah hassy coats or eventually Robin D'Angelo and it it

1:31:10

forces you to see race first before everything else right so I had to like get away from all that stuff and it rots

1:31:17

your brain I mean that's right so people now will say to me oh we really want you to be part of our Board of XYZ dead um

1:31:25

because you know we we need more diversity and I and I think to myself so sorry so I'm me I've done all my

1:31:32

achievements everything I've done and all you can see when you look at me is that I've got brown skin you know and I

1:31:37

don't that didn't used to happen you know it didn't used to happen so it um

1:31:42

it's because people are being taught to only see race and only see religion uh

1:31:47

and that is is is I thought that this some of this stuff might have gone away and that we might have seen that at its

1:31:53

PE in 2020 and that seems to be there's been a significant push back against it

1:32:00

that know you're shaking your head I'm wrong you think this is no I we could have another Summer of Love like we did

1:32:06

in 20 I mean I guess we're kind of sort of having a inversion of the summer of the love right now yeah look I I I think

1:32:12

you mix in um uh circles with lots of right-wing people which is fine I'm not

1:32:18

criticizing you but I I don't think you you see what

1:32:24

I I see and um in education yeah and uh I don't think

1:32:31

um yes there are people who are pushing back but there's a whole bunch of people who are not hearing from those people at

1:32:37

all uh the progressives they're not hearing from them and um when they do

1:32:42

they double down you know you saw the the the the Senate half being attacked

1:32:48

and the Winston Churchill and so on I mean all of these well you've seen all of that I mean

1:32:54

this isn't you know it's that's not things

1:32:59

getting better that's things getting worse

1:33:06

um yeah I mean I I see it because I meet my teachers I I hear what you know I I I

1:33:12

I I know what they're all struggling with look my teachers come and teach at my school

1:33:18

um they're their friends they lose friends you know their boyfriends and

1:33:23

girlfriend split up with them um it it this is this is a serious problem that

1:33:30

we've got uh in in our society and um

1:33:36

I and and we also follow America so what's happening with the Democrats and

1:33:43

the divisions there um I've been doing some work with a school in the Bronx helping

1:33:50

them um we were looking for a head of school trying to find somebody who

1:33:56

didn't immediately at interview talk about everything through the prism of race was so difficult so hard I mean

1:34:06

uh everything has been racialized Now in America it it didn't used to be like that in the 1990s it was not like that

1:34:12

in America um and we tend to follow America with its Trends

1:34:18

and we will especially follow America if white people are told you are a racist

1:34:26

if you don't believe in Dei for example um because nobody wants to be called a

1:34:31

racist because it's basically the worst thing you can call somebody um it's worse than that by the way because not

1:34:36

only is that true but also if you call Cela a Dei vice president or anyone Dei

1:34:42

then you're also racist for saying de you're racist if you say it exists and you're racist if you say you don't believe in it so either way you know

1:34:48

that's right so we must put her in because we need Dei to to be successful how dare you then say it no we need to

1:34:54

pretend that it didn't exist I mean it's just uh I I I don't I don't I I I don't

1:35:01

know I don't know well look my very modest attempt now is to Simply get

1:35:07

people to understand how important schools are uh and to understand what's happening in our schools and what we

1:35:13

need to do in our schools to change things yeah um and this isn't me blaming schools I need to say this you know uh

1:35:21

because uh it is so so hard to run a good school to run a good classroom you

1:35:28

have to be countercultural how do we address that how do we teach our

1:35:33

teachers um the British history that we'd like our kids to learn how do we um

1:35:40

make sure that the values that we should be teaching our children our teachers have and that they should want to

1:35:46

inculcate those values in our children you know um I think

1:35:54

for instance some teachers will see their their role as being much more

1:36:00

aligned with an idea of trying to encourage children to reject the

1:36:06

establishment that you need to create little revolutionaries because the establishment is evil and we need to

1:36:13

overthrow it and we need to teach them how to do that and they see that as being a good person that's what it is to

1:36:20

be good um that teaching British history to kids because it's their history and a

1:36:29

history they should be proud of but also critical of um that isn't it's not seen

1:36:35

in that way and that um we you know the idea of being

1:36:44

patriotic um I remember once uh uh one

1:36:49

of the writers for the Sunday Times or times he came and um

1:36:54

he uh Dominic Lawson and he came and uh he he saw the the kids and heard them

1:37:01

singing God saved the king and he said to me Katherine are you deliberately trying to be

1:37:08

controversial and uh and for singing the National Anthem yeah that's it and then

1:37:13

he also heard the um the poem If You Know by Kipling and again Katherine what

1:37:21

are you trying to do you know and uh and iing but it's a beautiful poem that

1:37:27

really you know represents our values

1:37:34

um I don't know it's particularly woring that the national anthem is considered controversial in this day and AG however

1:37:41

Catherine I think we no no no but it is like hardly anyone sings it you go to

1:37:47

any school they don't sing the national anthem you might at a few private schools once a term possibly at some

1:37:53

Chapel event or something that they would sing the national anthem oh no it's never like it is massively

1:38:00

controversial I mean yeah that's very worrying on a

Closing Thoughts

1:38:07

positive note and I I think that we have touched on some pessimistic aspects

1:38:13

there at the end but positives I've taken away from this conversation is is that you've really hammered the idea of

1:38:20

manage multiculturalism through Civic institutions and it's there's a lot of talk about universities how universities

1:38:26

but no one thinks so much as about about secondary and primary schools and so that seems to I've really got that message from you in this conversation

1:38:33

and some of the other positives I've taken from this is that teaching British history some of these aspects like some

1:38:42

things like the national anthem that do do unify us it seems to me and and the

1:38:47

values and the values of course right the these are ways which it's not

1:38:53

actually that's secular actually there's there's an element of tradition and history to it and that to me gives me

1:39:01

hope as the common culture I'd been looking for at the beginning of this conversation when you say secular it's interesting so when you say secular what

1:39:07

do you mean without religion right have I got the wrong is

1:39:13

that no I'm just wondering because actually it made me think oh well what do I mean when I say secular what do you mean when you say

1:39:22

secular I suppose I've always thought of it as not of any one particular religion

1:39:27

you know that we have all of our religions there that all of our children are of different religions and races and

1:39:34

so on and that we have a multicultural community that we exist under one umbrella where we have shared values and

1:39:41

shared rituals and shared knowledge and so on um but that we allow difference as

1:39:48

long as it does not upset the whole I I yeah and that um that is something that

1:39:56

we actively manage daily that we're thinking about all of the time um at

1:40:03

Michaela at Michaela yeah exactly uh because we know how important culture is

1:40:11

because it eats strategy for breakfast yeah I love that yeah Katherine thank you so much for your time is there

1:40:17

anything you think we miss that you'd like to just anything you think needs clarifying um we sounds like we

1:40:23

clarified a couple of your previous podcast interviews on this show so maybe if you'll do it on the next one but well you know and isn't it amazing CU it's so

1:40:30

hard these topics are so complex that even with an hour and a half chat I come

1:40:36

out thinking oh I should have said this oh I didn't say that Etc you know so yeah thank you for having me because

1:40:42

it's such an important topic and I'm so thrilled to be able to talk about it in such detail with you because um I I do

1:40:49

think much can be learned from what we do at Michaela and you know people think oh she's just so

1:40:55

full of herself no it's just that I have an example of a multicultural Community that's hugely successful and it's

1:41:01

because we manage it daily and I think Lots can be learned from it and how can people find you or Michaela you earlier

1:41:09

in this conversation you invited people to come visit how would they do that yeah so uh well you could just Google Michaela community school and then you

1:41:14

go on our website and you can visit the school there but I'm also on Twitter um

1:41:20

you're very on Twitter yes yes Miss Snuffy is my

1:41:25

missor Snuffy ffy um as in Miss Snuffleupagus is what I used to be when

1:41:31

I wrote a Blog many many many years ago uh because Mr sopus is the big elephant

1:41:37

in the room in Sesame Street oh so that's why I'm Miss Snuffy I'm still

1:41:42

miss Snuffy somewhat embarrassingly seeing as I'm also meant to be the strictest head mistress in the in the country so um uh but yes that's why uh

1:41:50

snuffle up iess that's so cool um well thank you so much and I hope we'll get to talk again I hope so too W thank you

1:41:58

thank you for watching the Winston Marshal show if you want to SP the show all you have to do is press subscribe we will see you next time