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they are being taught that Britain is bad because of its Colonial history because of slavery that Britain is racist if that's what they're learning all of the time ethnic minority kids grow up very angry and resentful of their country and the white kids will come out feeling deeply uncomfortable and very guilty about their country and about their white skin and what are the solutions to that well this is it it it is complex isn't it no when I say this people get angry can you tell me why that's offensive to people and that is where the the phrase diversity is our strength is hugely problematic the biggest threat to the country is what is being taught in schools you have absolutely no idea what your child is doing all day in school so I think Elon Musk is wrong when it comes to kids when it comes to schools what is he wrong he thinks that it it's so frightening all of this discussion on what Kamala is is she Asian is she black who the hell cares if we can't as a nation articulate what those things are what what hope do we have of dealing with what we're seeing on the society level which is horrific things are going to get worse and [Music] worse hello and welcome to the Winston Marshall show with me Winston Marshall I sat down with Katherine BBL Singh the head teacher and founder of the Michaela Community School in Northwest London the reason I wanted to talk to her is because England which is having suffering a great deal at the moment coming out the back of what happened in Southport and the following riots we wanted to look at multiculturalism something that she'd been talking about but also something that she has been doing with her schools now for over 10 years how to bring together different communities a multicultural Community into one common culture I think this might be the most important question facing our country today and so we went deep into that what she's doing at the school itself but also a look at the country uh politically but also different communities looking into education all aspects really what it is to be British what it is that unifies us it was an important conversation and one that I think will take a lot away from before you hear from Catherine if you want to support the show all you have to do is press subscribe if you do that we can explore more difficult important topics like this one and I can invite more phenomenal guests like Katherine onto the show but without further Ado Katherine bubling thank you for coming in the question I want to get to eventually is what is it that is the common culture for Britain yeah you've talked about managing Ing multiculturalism and I think you've used the language common culture is something that is to unify us the reason why I think this is so important well firstly I think this might be the most important question facing our country we're told every day diversity is our greatest strength I have to believe Unity is our greatest strength not against diversity but without Unity what good is it yeah I think you with your schools with the Michaela Community School you're actively doing it unlike all these other people on Twitter as we discussed you're putting your money away your mouth is you're and your issu who to ask but there's aext if for our listeners I I'll paint a little bit if you don't mind which is the it's been our country is ruling it's been a horri horrible month which has ended with the murder of the three girls in uh in Southport Elise dot stanum Alice DVA agua and BB King and that's then inspired a bunch of protests before that we had very shocking scenes also as well as the recent ones in in har Paul and White Hall and of course South but before that we had hair Hills we had Rochdale it seems that the country is there's rioting happening along tribal lines along sectarian lines exactly and I I don't remember our country ever being like this and so before getting to the big question about what unites us I thought it might be worth exploring and maybe coming to maybe we'll agree maybe we won't agree about what the problems are right now facing Britain and what the root causes of those problems are forgive me this is a broad question but what we've seen in the last month well actually I should say you've I've seen you do media and you have used the you've concentrated to talking about managing multiculturalism implicit there is that you think that there are some downsides to multiculturalism and that that related to what we've seen this month have I understood that correctly well I don't I wouldn't say that there are downsides necessarily it's just that it needs to be managed carefully so look uh I am the daughter of um uh my Jamaican mother and my indog Guyanese father I am uh the product of multiculturalism um but it doesn't come without its difficulties um when I was about 15 years old I discovered that I had four cousins these boys who were my brother's his brother's uh children um I had never met them um because uh for all those years um his brother had had not spoken to my father because uh he had married my mother um it it there are difficulties when it comes to managing multiculturalism and um that's because uh sometimes people can come with prejudices so I think that that that is a real uh issue you know people on the left I think when they accuse me think that I don't understand that I do get that but um I think it is also the case that different cultures come with different expectations and uh different demands and sometimes those demands Clash so as an example um at our school uh Muslims for instance eat meat but no pork Hindus eat meat but no beef um uh Muslims would like to eat halal meat Jews would like to eat kosher um uh siks cannot eat any type of meat that has been treated in a different kind of way so what do you do right well I tell you what we did we went vegetarian um and India did the same thing they've got all these different cultures well you know what we're going to do we're going to go vegetarian now I've had criticism from the right on that because their position is well you shouldn't Bend at all uh now I'm not saying everyone on the right thinks that some people in the right would say that I should just be serving normal food and that either people get with it or they don't um now why is it an issue for us because we have family lunch this is what we call it and we all eat the same food so there isn't any choice now you might want to get round it by just giving out a variety of different choice but it becomes complicated you know kosher Halal the kitchen is different you can't use the same utensils you know etc etc so there are logistical things when it comes to running institutions like hospitals and schools and so on uh that get in the way uh this idea that I think uh some progressives have which is that well multiculturalism is wonderful just throw everybody in a big pot and let's get to it it's all fine they don't recognize that some desires and demands clash and then you need some way of dealing with the Clash uh some way of of prioritizing and what we do at Michaela is that we prioritize um the success of the whole Community above the desires of any individual group or any individual person MH um so uh something that has nothing to do with multiculturalism uh for instance is uh our silent corridors uh people say to me why do you need silent corridors I mean they're not entirely silent we say good morning good afternoon but that's it we don't have conversations people think it's Draconian I why am I obsessed with this idea of having silent corridors well because I spent all my life working in the inner city and seeing what the corridors at inner city schools look like which is kids getting be beaten up uh bullying their heads being smashed into the walls and all sorts now um it's true that there are some kids who you could have perhaps your you're better behaved kids you're you know because you have naughty kids and then you have kids who are who are who are who are nicer let's say if you have a very selective environment you might not need silent corridors um if it's not selective well some of those kids it's true are having to be silent when they do they would be able to get along fine without being silent but they make that sacrifice for the betterment of the whole so all of our children and all of our families are told I explain all of this before they visit they come to the school they join the school and I say look we need to succeed as a team and as a as a whole school and in order to do that you're going to have to make certain sacrifices and that that's just the deal that's part of the deal uh you're going to have to eat vegetarian food at lunch doesn't mean you have to be vegetarian at home but you do have to be vegetarian at lunch because we can't make it work otherwise we can't make family lunch work and I love family lunch because and you will have to come and visit at some point um I love it because the kids serve each other food uh they have a a a chat as if you might do around the dinner table um they clean up after each other it's very different to the Cantine culture of I'm taking what I want to do me and I'm going to eat my food and then I might even leave my plate at the end for the cleaners to pick up because well it's not my responsibility and I very much want the children not to have that kind of attitude where they look after each other now those principles are more important than children being able to eat exactly what they want um so that principle of thinking about the success of the whole and prioritizing that over everything else and individual desires is what drives us now people then say well why are we talking about this one school you know I get that criticism from both the right and the left they say look Katherine you run a school what do you know about society and I would say it means I know everything about Society because school is a microcosm of society and what works in school tells us what could work in society um and not only that but schools make Society people you know one of these days I'm going to write a book called why children matter because I don't think we understand that children matter um you heard me the other day saying this actually um uh both right left doesn't matter the whole political Spectrum doesn't understand this everybody's concentrating on the adults and I understand why because we're all adults and we see the problems and we say oh my goodness how do we fix this right now and you're absolutely right we do need to concentrate on the now however in four or five years time the kids at school will be those adults right and if the schools could be a lever that we could pull to make it so that we could get on well as adults well why wouldn't we want to pull that and if it's the case that the schools are actually currently making it so that the kids are less likely to get on and that the adults that they will become are less likely to get on and that if the things we continue doing and thinking will ensure that multiculturalism really will fail don't we want to change that now this is what I'm trying to say to people and and and as soon as I start saying multiculturalism needs managing all hell breaks loose I mean I get threatened by the Press they start saying they're going to write an expose on the school and how it's so terrible and I'm thinking what are you going to write about the school the kids are really happy the parents are really happy the thing is I'm very used to all kinds of hit jobs in the media where they come after me because I'm not allowed to say that multiculturalism should be managed MH and I'm trying to ring a big alarm Bell here can you can you tell me why that's offensive to people what what's your di why people are offended by you saying we need to manage multiculturalism okay well I suspect that when people hear that they think I'm saying it's failed and the reason why it has failed is the fault of ethnic minorities and I think that progressives um so so the problem we have here is that those leaning to the right will say ethnic minorities aren't doing what they should do uh you know participate in society in a way that um we would like them to um uh you know I I often hear them say things like you know well there weren't that many black people at some Royal event or there weren't that many brown or black people at uh an event that uh had has to do with um the country you know participating in loving the country uh it could be a remembrance event or it could be um uh anything that is to do with Britain you know and then what they say is look if if if if eth minorities aren't going to participate on that kind of level then how on Earth can we all get on with each other uh people on the left they'll say the problem is the far right and racism um and if we don't stop the racism then uh we're never going to be able to succeed as a country that's how they see it um so very much with this Southport situation these are the two views I was hearing on on Twitter and the problem is social Med media divides everybody so uh the people on the left are only hearing from their people the people on the right are only hearing from their people and they literally have no idea what the other one is saying they have no idea and so those on the left for instance think I'm crazy and think what I'm saying is so deeply misguided um and uh you know that I've been radicalized and that um I'm a things they call me they call me a [ __ ] an idiot I'm a useful idiot for the far right um because I'm obviously somehow so stupid that I'm just promoting the far rights ideals um when I mean obviously I mean this is just crazy I mean it's just mad um I've I've worked all my life in the inner city this 25 years working with brown and black kids uh set up my own School in the inner city precisely to help brown and black kids of course there's a handful of white kids in there too um I love children of all colors and and and and spend my life working with them to enable social Mobility better than any other school in the country so this idea that um I somehow uh uh am helping the far right uh is just absurd um and what I'm begging them to listen to me on is if it's the case that I'm saying this stuff and I'm not trying to help the far right then what I'm why am I saying it why would I put myself in the firing line like this um if if if I don't believe that maybe you're doing something wrong and when I say doing something wrong look it's not the fault of schools okay I need to say this schools are so difficult to run well um it's so difficult to run well in particular in this culture uh that we have at at the moment where parents can be very demanding where perhaps headteachers will not get the support of the department uh for education or or from the media they're thrown into the Limelight and they're attacked left right and Center nobody want most head teachers have a mortgage to pay they want to walk their dog and feed their kids you know so if we live in a day and age where head teachers have to put themselves on the line in order to run a decent school well and that is the day and age we live in then then we already are in trouble but then you've got to be able to see beyond that so people always talk about our school we have great results we do have great results I I think it's the least interesting thing about our school and I'm always saying this okay look results come out in August our kids will do well I'll say isn't that great we've got you know and it'll be lovely and you know they'll they'll get much better results than they would have got elsewhere and that's great forget about the results look at who our kids are look at the people we have created okay now we get over 800 visitors every year uh over 7,000 people have come to visit the school this is not normal schools all over the world nobody gets these kinds of visitors why do we get these visitors because through word of mouth and through social media which I think is a Force for good and bad in this case good people have heard about us and they come and they cannot believe what they're seeing okay these are teachers I've had teachers break down in tears who were visiting who say but how is this possible right now A friend of mine works one of the local schools he came and he went round and he he came bursting into my office once when he was visiting for the first time and um he's been several times since and uh he said Katherine I've been talking to the kids and they all go to the same primary schools as our kids what have you done to them he just couldn't understand how come they're so kind and decent how come they're so chatty and articulate how come they're so ambitious and driven so there's something that we're doing with them right now what are we doing and this all Taps into the multiculturalism idea uh people think often when it comes to schools that if you want to fix something you need to fix that thing so what I mean is children are unhappy let's give them happiness lessons uh children lack self-esteem let's give them self steam lessons Okay that's how that's how we tend to think actually what we need to do is teach the children in a more traditional fashion the reason why it needs to be more traditional and when I say traditional what I mean is teacher standing at the front of the class leading the learning Being the adult Authority in the room holding the children to account teaching them both knowledge and values okay now when you do that teach them traditionally and hold to account and give them both knowledge and values you build their happiness you build their self-esteem and you give them values that will allow them to get on with each other and make sacrifices of on their own individual Desires in order to help someone else or perhaps to help their whole Community now if you get that balance right and you have that as your goal a multicultural community can succeed and so our Multicultural community that doesn't sound Multicultural anymore that sounds like a common culture because you you're instilling the same values amongst all the kids that's true but and this is this is the issue so at what point do you allow difference okay yeah at what point do you allow difference so it's funny because Freddy sers who is at unheard and um I uh did a I I I had a whole conversation with him for about 40 minutes um after we were taken to court over the uh prayer issue MH and uh we talked all about it that was last year no earli this year when you went to the high court because one of your students Muslim student wanted to pray and you forbade it yeah exactly well I mean yes sort of I mean basically uh they want they wanted a prayer room and we were saying no to this prayer room so um and it's funny because I then saw Freddy later on uh at dinner you know Weeks Later months later and um and he said well of course Catherine you don't allow anything religious in in in your school religion you have to say no to religion at the gates and I said this not true I haven't said that and he said well we talked about it for 40 minutes yeah yeah you do say that and I said no I don't and I thought isn't this fascinating that he and I have had this discussion and yet that's not what I'm saying so so what am I saying and this is my fault cuz I'm obviously not being clear enough um what am I saying there are some religious issues that we allow in our school I don't know the Muslim girls all wear hijabs we don't have a problem with that seat kids would wear bangal um uh there are there are various I don't know Christian kids might have a cross underneath their their shirts I don't mind about that well I can think of two from your school straight away which is that you have the national flag which is of course a Christian cross in fact if it's the Union flag there's two Christian crosses there's St George cross and St Andrew's cross yes but you also sing the national anthem which starts with God Save the King yes yes that's true so there is religion yes I suppose so that's a very good point so you see I mean I haven't even thought about it you've just said something to me that I haven't thought about now why haven't I thought about it so that and that's key MH because what I haven't done is said no to religion at the gates we are a secular Community I haven't said that what I've said is we're going to go along to get along and if there's something that's going to prevent us from getting along and sharing in our communal spaces and enjoying each other's company and being friends across religious and racial divides um if anything's going to stop that from happening I'll say no to that but I'll say yes to everything else that logistically speaking means that we can all get on with each other mhm that that's ultimately it so why are we vegetarian because logistically for serving meat would not have allowed us to do our family lunch and our family lunch is very important to us because of the values that family lunch teaches and those values are more important than the individual Community or religion's Desires in that moment and so we always put the team above the individual so it's about finding that balance and um okay so that I understand why and why the kids would understand the logic there what's the logic how do you explain why they should sing the national anthem and why you would have the British flag how do you explain that to a kid okay great question so uh we're all British um and I what does it mean to be British yeah it's a good question I mean when schools uh talk about British value they'll talk about the rule of law belief in democracy um and which America have both off so just as well be American as true that's true but it couldn't be lots of lots of countries so there is a distinction to Britain no but that's Western and that's important right that's that's an important distinction because I often think that we we forget that actually uh you know we don't push gay people off of buildings that our police aren't corrupt in the way that you will find in so many countries around the world so um and and I think if people traveled a bit more saw what other countries were like they might realize just how grateful we should be for be being able to live in a country like Britain you know um so I mean look uh there are all kinds of uh National characteristics like joining the queue and um uh eating beans and toast you know we serve um beans on potatoes you know you go to America they think you're a bit odd if you're eating well they don't even know what baked beans are let alone eating them on a potato you know and that's one of our standard dishes that we eat so I I I would and that would tie in I would say our Cuisine ties into the Traditions aspect of what it is to be a nation I'm quite Keen forgive me here exct and so other things they stand for their head mistress at assembly you know that's British schools do that um that wouldn't happen in most other Western countries for instance uh that is a tradition and a a ritual as you say that has been handed down through the through through the the years um we they stand for their head mistress this will be just after they've they've been singing God save the king or um I vow to thee my country or Jerusalem those are the three uh pieces of music that we'll do um and and then I tell them to sit down and then I give them an assembly uh why do we do that because I am the top of the tree at the school and it's about creating a kind of Aura around me I'm sort of The Wizard of Oz you never know what goes on in Miss bbal sing's office and there's a real sense of you don't want to get on Miss bble sing's list you know what is she going to say or you know heads of year will say what would Miss Bal Singh think of that behavior that kind of thing because you're you're creating an aura around me and I have to be very careful when I'm out and about in town you know and sometimes there's the Red Man and I think oh I want to cross and I think are there any kids around because I can't be seen to doing bad stuff you know IE a sense of hierarchy and Authority yes and role modeling you know where they want to be a certain type of person which is fantastic M but to my question about what it is to be British you look very close when you say that you chose those three anthems yes okay so why would you choose those three anthems because obviously they're not going to sing those in America to use my earlier example no because that seems to be closer to the thing our countries they they belong to us and you know what that thing of belonging to us you know Roger screw uh who a great philosopher and writer as you know uh sadly died recently um um he came to visit us H and um he spoke to the children about fox hunting I said oh let you're you're you believe in fox hunting I don't believe in fox hunting I said you know all about it come and tell us and persuade us that you know fox hunting is the thing to do so he did his best um I'm not sure he convinced any of but he did his best now he went around the school and I I genuinely think with had real impact on him changed his mind about something which I always feel really proud of because it was the great Roger scrutin after all and um I remember him saying to me and he he we wrote a book after that and he gave us a quote for the book uh which said that um it was a life-changing experience for him seeing the school because he saw brown and black children of the inner city being taught British history as if it was theirs m and that up until this point he had given up hope that ethnic minorities could ever be integrated into society in such a way that we could all get on with each other right and so and and that is key but that's different from culturalism no well let me come to that the British history those anthems uh British ways of life of eating be big beans and so on belong to us too right of course you say of course the thing is is that the culture nowadays is such that it encourage us it encourages us all to see each other as very different so in schools uh you might celebrate uh International Day and everybody brings their flag everybody dresses in their dress everybody brings their food right now look if that's done in amongst culture which is shared then that's okay but I would argue that things are far more divisive than what they should be so when you say that's not Multicultural okay look that's common culture that is there is a common culture but there's also a multicultural situation going on because the Muslim Girls cover their heads the other girls don't um uh the the the the seeks wear their Bangals the other kids don't you know um there are are there are differences that we Embrace and that we well we would never have any issue with um but as long as those differences don't upset the whole um and but you're and but you're absolutely right to say there has to be a common culture right there has to be and that is where the the phrase diversity is our strength is hugely problematic um what's diversity can be great as long as we are managing it properly right that that's the thing and uh we need to um we need to recognize this and I'm not you know when I say this people get angry but I'm not blaming anybody I'm not saying it's the fault of ethnic minorities I'm not saying it's the fault of white people I'm not saying you bloody white people why don't you uh be more tolerant I'm not saying you bloody brown and black people why don't I'm not saying that I'm saying that if each side and there are many sides because it's not just brown and black people white people with amongst the brown and black people you've got the Hindus and Muslims who will fight each other you've got the um sunnis and the Shia Muslims who will fight each other you got you got like it's much more complex so multiculturalism isn't just ethnic minority and white it's all kinds of cultures look we all love eating sushi and eating a curry um and these are important it's it we like it now it may be somebody on the right was telling me well we don't need to have that to hell with all that different food we just want what we want okay fine but you know what look before black and brown people ever came along um uh there were problems with multiculturalism in the country Catholics Protestants you know remember I mean like there it is it has always and angles and sactions the country was founded exactly where Angles and Saxons came together against the the Vikings the the the history of Britain is one of different cultures right just because there were no brown and black people or there were very few of them because you know there were a few um uh just because there were only you know the black and brown people are not the problem obviously it's it's the the issue is how do we make it so that different cultures can can get on with each other and um yes so I agree with that so cusine seems to be a bit of a red herring to me used from by both sides like left will say like isn't all this cusine great but and then the right I don't know what that response necessarily would be but I'm interested in what it isn't it's important because I'll tell you why it's important because that's an example of something that we could hang on to and we could still share a common culture right it it's about it's not all or nothing but food is never a why it's not going to be it's not going to be it doesn't food it might provoke some sentiment but it doesn't in the same way that reading the anthems will or knowing our history or or the the the kind of stories about our country the myth about our country doesn't provoke the same sort of sentiment as as what do mean provoke the same sort of well not provokes the wrong word but evoke rather um I guess what I'm trying to say uh say is that we have to to be part of a a nation a country we have a sense of a a commonality and part of that commonality is is history and a sh a shared culture and food is one aspect ECT of that what I find so interesting about what you've done with the school is that you've managed to have all these different not just different races but different religions with drastically different cultures come together and you've bound them together and I want to know what it is that thing that's binding them and food is one aspect of it yeah yeah and the reason I'm pushing for this pushing on this question is because I want to know what lessons we can get from your school apply to the whole society I'm sorry we can't apply the food thing to whole society we're not going to say to everyone right we're going to all e the same thing no but what one the lessons we can learn from your school are about the the history the the idea of shared history that everyone is everyone is in uh invited to participate in the history of this land Roger scrutin you brought up earlier he said what is it to be British his answer was place it's about this island it's about about how we're we're commune together in this island and I think I asked this question because I think the what I see about our country is that we're falling apart along these different lines what is it that we can all get behind and multiculturalism isn't enough because that's not a common culture that's so that's why I'm pushing on on those questions that's right but the the reason why it's important to talk about the food issue right to come back to it is because what the progressive is saying there at that point is saying well this stuff's really good so what's the problem right and the the point is that there are some differences that are great because they're not upsetting the balance of the whole yeah there are others that are problematic when it comes to institutions and so on now then there's the additional point which you're saying which is yes but what can we then share together now look history for instance is a really good um is a it's a really good uh subject to talk about uh the way in which history is taught in our school um so our kids know a lot of history they know a lot um you're not going to find other kids elsewhere who know more history than our kids now that's because we teach in a traditional fashion we teach we do quizzes every week we give lots of homework we have very high standards of behavior etc etc um if you don't have that then your kids are not being taught very much they just can't they don't have enough there's not enough time in the lessons to learn the the the teaching methods that are being used are not going to allow the children to remember this stuff as well as our kids will remember it um the structures the the the interruptions and behavior and so on it means they're not learning that much so then what are they learning in that short period of time and what are they remembering now if they are too often not always it'll depend on the school it'll depend on the classroom it'll depend on the history teacher but if too often they are being taught that Britain is bad that Britain was is bad because of its Colonial history because of slavery uh that Britain is racist in it at its core if that's what they're learning all of the time then ethnic minority kids grow up very very angry and resentful of their country because this is what they're learning they're not being taught here's the whole of British history and this belongs to you and here's some of the good and some of the bad and some of the interesting and let's talk about it and isn't it fantastic they're not having that experience which our children are having they're having an experience which is teaching them to feel deeply uncomfortable with their country the ethnic minorities will come out feeling like they're hated by their country and the white kids will come out feeling deeply uncomfortable and very guilty about their country and about their white skin and so uh where do that history where does that come from why is that the case is it is there not is it not in the National curriculum that they need to learn a certain thing how has it got to a place that history be is being taught in that way because it's sort of how many people's view British history now um if you look at the textbooks um if you uh you know it's not just textbooks that are used people create their own PowerPoints um if if just random teachers creating power points then you are actually um well it's up to the individual teacher we're at the mercy of how they see the world and if the teachers tend to have a very Progressive Outlook and if they feel deeply ashamed of their country um they're going to teach it in that kind of way um and it's entire we're at their Mercy uh you know this idea that which you sort of are suggesting that there is a curriculum and that we all have have the same resources and that the resources are all excellent and that we all go out there and teach in the same fashion that's not happening at all um as never happened um so but there is a national curriculum yeah but you don't necess I mean what does that mean there there are certain subjects that you should be teaching and even then you don't have to follow the national curriculum but even if you did I mean look all kids will learn history at school that's all the curriculum is saying teach them some history that's all I mean what you teach them in years seven eight and N is entirely up to you only 40% of children then go on to take it at GCSE so their history is taught at primary school and then in years s eight and N uh they're not held to account by any national exams on this they could be taught anything in that time um so and if the teachers tend to feel uncomfortable uh with their own history and British history and they teach it in such a way that makes children feel in the way that I've said then is it any wonder that we then have problems when they are adults and this is the sort of thing that I'm trying to say to people and and nobody's listening you're the only one Winston you're the only one who wants to talk about this um it it's uh I feel like you know it's a there's a pot of boiling water and the Flames are just they're increasing and increasing and increasing and I'm saying look turn the heat down for goodness sake we need to do something different with what's happening in our schools but nobody cares about schools uh people don't think they're important and this is on all sides of the political spectrum they don't think they're important um they think teachers are irrelevant um uh they think I think generally speaking people who don't teach think that well if you failed at life you become a teacher um they don't understand how hard it is how uh difficult it is not just to run a classroom to run a school and to you have to be countercultural to be saying to teach in the way that I'm suggesting right um if you're just doing what everybody else is doing well you're probably going to teach history in a way that I would find problematic are you teaching it BR British history so in the main although also Western so we would teach the French Revolution uh American Civil Rights for instance because we want them to have a general sense imagine was teaching the French Revolution in a positive light I remember not at your school well I assume not in your school well what I don't even know if they're teaching it and if they are do the kids remember it I don't know I don't think people who don't teach don't realize how little is actually taught in schools in the time that they have got if you've got one history lesson a week or possibly two where you actually manage to get about 30 40 minutes of teaching time if you're lucky where half the kids aren't really listening anyway where kids are on their phones or have earphones in and so on what are they learning if you're not using the correct teaching methods that will ensure that the children remember what you're teaching them children then learn their history from Tik Tok that's where they're learning their history okay so there's the there's the way in which we're teaching our children what the resources are how we're teaching them quite Poss to hate their country or to feel hated by their country and and what are the solutions to that then well this is it it it is complex isn't it um at the moment I'm trying the on a very basic level I'm just trying to get people to see the importance of schools and why children matter right I'm just trying to get everyone to understand this is on the right and the left that we need to look to our schools um that yes we need to deal with adults now I understand that but the future of the country is in the hands of the children and in the hands of our teachers right the biggest threat to the country is what is being taught in schools and not just so we talked about history and we talked about knowledge so our geography curriculum is all about place and Britain and children understanding their British geography right now so it's not just that values we need to come under values okay because that they're they're the biggest thing okay so we actively teach the children kindness gratitude self-sacrifice uh a a a sense of decency um so what do I mean by that um every lunch hour when we do our family lunch at the end of it they have to stand up and they have to give an appreciation to a room full of 200 people I'd like to give an appreciation to my dad for waking me up this morning and then we all go on the count of 2 one two and we all clap now why do we do that and it's not just gratitude uh announced publicly it's also privately we write we get the kids to write postcards to their teachers to Express gratitude for being taught x y and Zed because no matter how poor you are how difficult life is how challenging things are uh you should be grateful for what you've got um and you should be grateful because you have more than somebody else but you should be grateful because gratitude makes us happy okay now um and this is where so they put on happiness lessons no no no no no happiness is a byproduct right it's through so all the self-help books out there all of them and I've read loads of them and not for me but I read them because I think isn't it funny this is exactly what we're doing at mcka and I read them to show my staff to explain to them why do we do this okay uh all of those self-help books talk about the same values that we're teaching our kids so when people have their breakdown at 45 you know midlife crisis and say what's the point of life Etc and they get those books had they gone to Michaela they wouldn't be having that midlife crisis okay because they would have had instilled in them to make it a habit of who they are uh the sense of kindness towards others so as an example kid drops his plate or actually the whole tub of lasagna that he's taking back to the um vegetarian lasagna obviously um taking back to the front and he's carrying it and let's say it all falls and loads of lasagna goes everywhere in many other schools es with a challenging intake what would happen at that point is the kids would all start going that's what they do right my school yeah okay right right so you remember exactly and it's horrible because they're laughing at the kid right and it it's not nice it's not kind at our school if that were to happen well and it has happened five or six kids will run I've seen kids put their fingers into wet lasagna to pick it up off the floor and put it in the tin because they want to help their their classmate now I've seen that a hundred times over in many different ways okay now what motivates them to do that what motivates them to go ah my classmates's in trouble as opposed to right kindness gratitude decency right a sense of personal responsibility for my behavior that I need to be a decent person now children need to be habituated in the this behavior and in in these values okay so the the problem self-help books have is that they they get to you too late you know you're reading them at 25 or at 45 and then it's all oh yeah right okay this is revolutionary write down five things that I'm grateful for at the end of the day okay I'll start doing that now why do they do that why do they say that they say that because they want a ritual daily ritual of forcing you to think about what you're grateful for we get the kids to stand up and give appreciations a daily ritual these feelings these values need to be habituated okay now if you do that in children when they're young they'll keep that for the rest of their lives now obviously there are bad eggs obviously not all children who are habituated in this way does it necessarily work with I say that every single one of our child moves from here to here now some of them move even further right but every single one of them is a better person for having been at Michaela there's no question now I do worry about when they leave us how much of that will they lose how much will they ping to the to the in the direction that I think the media and Society ends up stoking you know the division that we talk about um because diversity is our strength you know what are these values that we should be and you say what is the common culture well that that I just talked about a sense of personal responsibility you haven't done your homework well you're not blaming the bus it's your responsibility right once you get that when you're in the workplace later and you don't don't deliver something you're not going to your boss well it was so so fault it was so so fault you your your response is it's on me sorry my fault right do you think it's unfair for me to think that traditionally schools would have got those values from Biblical scripture and this pushes me to the question I think is a part of it is that are is Britain a Christian country which is a very difficult question because obviously we are we have multi many religions we have 4 million Muslims for example uh who British Muslims and so is the common culture to do with Christianity do you think how important is that to us I mean as I said earlier there's Christian aspects to Mela even if it's very subtle and and and underneath yes um well the country's uh history has been Christian um and so clearly those judeo-christian Val values are everywhere um I think we often take them for granted um in our society I think um uh progressives will uh they just assume that well everybody thinks like this this is normal it's not normal it's been normalized in the country through us having a history of Christianity um and it's we Christianity has done such a good job we don't even realize that it's not normal at all that Romans when they had a baby they didn't want they just used to leave the baby out in the sun to die you know that uh the idea of of of being kind to your neighbor why would you do that you want to kill him so you can take what he has you know like like that that is normal what we have here in the west is not normal and that's why we should be grateful for it and we should appreciate it um so yes our values at Michaela are Judo judeo-christian in their in their beliefs and in their ways because that's those are the values that we've all grown up with um does that does that yes for your non-Christian students is that a is that a problem is is there every difficulty there friction there no never no but then I'm we're not going around saying this is judeo Christian you better do what we say I mean this is just what the school is and nobody's going to say well it's wrong to teach children kindness it's wrong to teach them gratitude the children love us you know they love the school um the parents love the school they know how much the children are learning and how happy they are everyone who comes to visit the school I mean this is the thing you don't want to believe me about the school anyone out there listening come and visit us just sign up on the website come and see what we do see how happy the children are um and how most importantly they are friends with each other across racial and religious divides that they don't think about who is what from where what religion they are and so on it's just they don't care now and they don't care because we share in this community and we are all kind to each other um if on the other hand in a school uh things so somebody called me authoritarian the other day and I am everything I know I know it's very unfair isn't it so the thing is I am that way with kids I believe we know better as adults and I think we need to impose those values on children MH um so I think Elon Musk is wrong when it comes to kids when it comes to schools why is he wrong he thinks that uh as many people do on the right because they're Libertarians um he thinks that it's wrong to teach children what and that you need to teach children how teach them how to think is what everybody says don't teach them what to think you have to teach them what to think I thought no you made this point fantastically on Jordan's EP uh podcast I think it's a brilliant point and actually if you just the more knowledge the less likely you are to get caught into ideologies because you have these other facts not just knowledge and I didn't make this clear enough with with right I didn't it was I I I was annoyed with myself afterwards look uh and it's you know your listeners that can listen to the Jordan Peterson podcast stuff about knowledge we need to teach them two things knowledge and values right and I didn't push that point on the values what we don't do is say to kids there's this thing called Murder some people think it's good some people think it's bad you decide we don't do that what we do is we say murder is wrong and you should not murder we also say uh hitting your toddler friend is wrong no no don't do that that's wrong that's bad no right yeah and then when they say I want that no don't grab we don't grab say please we tell them what to say we tell them what to do this idea that we should just let them do whatever they want and just teach them how to think how do you teach a three-year-old how to think that's insane it really is and the thing is people on the right are saying it people on the left are saying it you know I've always said that the the Spectrum the Left Right spectrum is a circle right it is not a a line so people say far right far left no no no no far right far left that that's what or horseshoe whatever that's what's going on right and the Libertarians don't realize how much they are playing into the hands of the far-left because they're just saying let everybody be free let them do whatever they want and then the far-left fill those vacuums the culture vacuums and um and we are where we are and I say where we are where we are and and I and I do hold uh the the progressive Outlook responsible um and I really hope some progressives listen to this although I don't know if they will you know but I really hope that they will um they're responsible for what exactly okay so if we are if as a white person um you feel bad about your privilege and if that feeling has you doing things that you perhaps wouldn't have done otherwise or saying things that you wouldn't have said otherwise that skew things for all of us um so um now look I I understand why white people might feel like this because they're being made to feel like that because that's the narrative uh Britain is bad Colonial history is bad Britain is racist you're a racist if you think X or Y you don't want to be a racist because racism these days has been um it's now got the power of I don't know it's worse than anything like the idea of being called a racist you'd rather be called a murderer than be called a racist you you you simply cannot be that thing and so you'll avoid it as a white person and look some genuinely decent white people who are progressives they want to make it so that multiculturalism can succeed and they think that the problem lies with them they think that the problem lies with white people not being understanding enough or not being uh liberal-minded enough uh being too racist and so they then think well what do I need to do and they're told what you need to be is anti-racist and if you think these things if you believe in uh Dei if you change the things that you you know it's wrong for you to hold on to the idea that uh baked beans on toast is a good idea or it's wrong for you to think that the royal family is important or whatever it is they then go okay okay cuz white people are ma are being made to feel deeply uncomfortable about who they are and um that's not helpful for them or for ethnic minorities and it's certainly not helpful for us all getting on with each other I think it's even worse than that and I think part of the reaction and the push back we're seeing now amongst let's say Patriot types yes exactly is that they see that their kids are getting taught that they their white kids have privilege whatever but they also look at the statistics and see oh white workingclass kids are the least successful in school in education and they don't want their kids to be treated differently from anyone else they consider it their country and they think it's absurd and that actually builds up resentment and then the then the next step in the danger the next danger in that line of thinking is okay well we need to prioritize the white kids now as reaction which is I think has come from progressivism and maybe it's an answer to the question that's right everything you're saying absolutely that the progressive idea is judging people by different racial ID or ethnic identities means that you're going to put get resentment amongst whites that's right look look at the the run in the the the campaign for the Democrats in in America it's entirely on racial lines white men for Kamala black women for Kamala back to the Democrat Roots I mean indeed like it it's so frightening all of this discussion on what Kamala is is she Asian is she black who the hell cares it's just crazy I want to know what her policies are I want to know what kind of person she is what are her values what do she think's important I I just look and it's funny because for me it's interesting because Kamala being her mom is from India her dad is from Jamaica my mom is from Jamaica my father is indog gyane so for the first time some famous person is my background basically you know Heritage racial Heritage you feel like she represents your ideas well this what so crazy I totally disagree with everything Camala has to say I mean like and but but but it's neat it's quite neat I think oh well there's somebody with my Heritage so it's not completely meaningless your heritage obviously it means something but it's just it's just quite cute that's all and so we're losing sight of what's really important and um and we're losing so when I say multiculturalism needs to be managed it needs a muscular management you know in the way that we do it and it's not just that multiculturalism needs management schools need management right but isn't managing schools managing multiculturalism and this is actually different to how I came into this conversation I mistook you saying manage managing multiculturalism as another way of saying finding common culture which actually that's separate things it's like there's managing multiculturalism and there is finding common culture to unify us as a people have I misunderstood that yeah I think that's right I think I think what you just said there is right at the end yeah isn't it interesting you know when I say about Freddy and that conversation I had and he Mis we misunderstood each other you and I like these ideas are so complex it's really hard to drill down into them look managing yes I think schools need to manage multiculturalism I think the media and Society needs to manage multiculturalism um and we don't do that by separating kids looko kids are separated like it's not just in America like it's not as bad here but there's the LGBT group there's the Muslim group there's the Hindu group there's the black Caribbean group now it may not be done uh officially although some groups will be created officially by certain groups um they'll say this is our LG btq day for instance and so on as opposed to we we're all children together um they when we divide children into groups like that they identify with their tribe right and when if black people are on Twitter and they're only looking at black Twitter then they only see black people and they're only identifying as a black person as opposed to but I'm British and I'm British before I'm black right I'm a black British person like and that's and that's great and you could be a Muslim British person and you can be a Hindu British person and you can be a white British person right and there will be differences we may eat some different foods uh we may wear different clothes um but there is a common culture under which we survive and get on with but we are unable as a country to articulate what that is and I'm just going to emphasize this I agree with that not only is that a problem which we see we've seen this month but if current migration Mass migration levels are what they are which is roughly 700,000 net a year gross 1.2 million so we're importing so many people or welc or rather inviting so many people on you know what I'm about to say on this huge level into this country at a way that we couldn't possibly yes assimilate or integrate like we used to where there was was a time assimilation wasn't didn't mean getting rid of your culture it means being part of the culture yeah yeah so the problem we've got as a country is we can't come together and even Define what it is to be British although I think you've kind of done that with your school some of the things it's kind of History it'ses Traditions which I think Cuisine comes under the tradition aspect yes yes yes yes and if we can't as a nation articulate what those things are what what hope do we have of dealing with what we're seeing on the society level which is horrific like it's really terrifying we're seeing all these anything and and sorry for me to pull out back to that but I think that's what's so important about what you've done at the Michaela it's it's it's bloody if not an example at least a bloody attempt yes to unite everyone it's an example I think it's an example it's an example I think that we should all learn from and um that's why I say our results are not that interesting I mean they are but actually it's it's who our kids are and how they get on with each other and how they're not divided and how they're willing to sacrifice things that are important to themselves for the betterment of the whole that they get that the team is more important than the individual you know that it's so important and it's and it's so important for us to recognize that that this needs to happen when they are children so what look your point about immigration 100% like I agree with you 100% uh it's crazy to have so many people coming in from outside who have different values and different cultures and so on and then how on Earth do we them and it's a real problem um I I agree with that I think sadly when people hear me say manage multiculturalism they think I mean all these brown and black people they're a major problem I mean and that's not what I'm saying um and neither are you saying that all immigration is bad you're just saying too much immigration is bad because it upsets the whole we come back to that right I'm not even quite saying that but but let's say I am okay we're H I am anyway I'm happy with any number of things any number of diversity issues different types of food different types of dress uh different types of dancing we all love salsa dancing and so on right all of that happy with all kinds of differences different types of religion I'm happy with mosques and churches and temples I don't mind that it's fine as long as it doesn't upset the whole right happy with immigration as long as the number don't upset the happiness of the whole so I think that is but they are in both cases yes no no absolutely and so that needs to change but what's important that I think I think people on the right now get distracted by the IM the immigration conversation I I'm not saying it's not right and true and they're you know I I agree okay but if you're constantly only looking at that and only talking about that you're missing the big issue that's going on that in our schools right now children are there being taught or being immersed in a culture that is teaching them either to hate themselves or to hate their country or that their country hates them and they are becoming the adults so yes you have adults coming in from outside who don't get the culture but you've got our own people here both white and non-white who are also so not loving their country and buying into the national culture because it's all going wrong when they were younger in their schools so it's not just an immigration problem you know the the the people I'm even more pessimistic now than when we started and this is what I'm trying to tell people I'm trying to you know and I'm riging alarm Bells here right look and I'm ringing alarm bells for those on the right who don't tend to understand that point but I'm also ringing alarm bells for those on the left who I know they want what's best I know they want everybody to get on but we can't just kid ourselves into getting along we can't just pretend that we're all getting along when we're clearly not what I found so bizarre about discussions that I would have on Twitter is that they would be going on about the far right and how terrible it is and so on but how dare you say that multiculturalism needs to be managed and I'd say but the fact that the far right exists just shows it's that is that is proof of the fact that we need to manage multiculturalism right because if if we were all getting along happily then we wouldn't be having riots right like obviously we're not and and where I need to push back on the Progressive is when they sort of just say yeah but they're Psychopaths when they label them the far right I'll tell you what the problem is with that look I mean yes there were far-right groups that were involved and yes uh you know it's bad to be on the far right and you know people say well you need to condemn it I condemn that right absolutely I think that the people who are involved in those riots should be punished it's absolutely Dreadful I'm the strictest headmistress in Britain clearly I think people need to be held to account for their behavior however there's also people who will be involved there who are not necessarily part of those farri groups and what I mean by that who may have rioted even who won't have been part of those farri groups because there and so and so throws a brick and you get you get H up in the moment and you throw a brick and you go yeah yeah well no I go further than that is that they're not necessarily we don't know what their politics are and if their politics are who they elected they're labor so they're not far right politically but it's when three of our daughters yes are exactly and by the way this isn't just happened out of nowhere this is in the context of the grooming gangs I think that's happened for decades up and down the country and all the what can you expect of men who have been told constantly no we're not going to do anything about the fact that your daughters are raped groomed and sometimes killed yes exactly and and and we can talk about like the plus sides of immigration but let's talk about the negatives the plus sides might be that we draw against Switzerland in the Euros the negatives also include the grooming gangs that that wouldn't have happened if there wasn't why you want to push back on you positives are well for instance you have me as a headress I'm me you know you have lots of ethnic minorities who are you know you go to a a hospital you're hard pushed to find a white doctor you know there's they're all brown and black you know like like the fact is the the ethnic minorities contribute massively to society you know so we don't want to say that that's not the case um but but so I I made this point to to be that all of these people that we're called fire right and if they're if they're engaging in political violence then it's probably a Justified to call them far right but a lot of them we don't know what their politics are they might not have any politics and they're just angry men who are that their daughters are being and we don't know who is what that that's exactly that's exactly right we don't know and there will be some who are part of fire groups fine but there's a whole bunch of them who are angry and are reacting and then I I I suppose what the progressive would say is but yes but they threw uh bricks at at the MOs MOS you know which by the way just for clarity of anyone's listening I agree with you they should be punished it's not acceptable ever political violence is never acceptable just for that exactly it's awful um and it's interesting because when try and find as you are want to talk about the explanations for why this is happening I'm told by progressives that I'm excusing their behavior and I'm saying no of course I'm not I'm the strictest headmistress in Britain I am not excusing their behavior I'm trying to find explanations why am I trying to find those explanations not to say that it's okay for them to behave that way but so that there aren't more and more of these incidents happening in the future MH because if if I don't if we don't find the if we don't understand the explanation and if we don't accurately pinpoint what's going wrong in our country then things are going to get worse and worse um some months ago I talked about multiculturalism at the arc Conference in October last year uh is a 10-minute um little speech I gave which some of your listeners might want to listen to and I I talk about exactly this multiculturalism how to make it work and the reason I did that and the reason I keep talking about multiculturalism is because I very much feared what would happen which is exactly what has happened that uh the the far right starts to get angry and starts taking notice that people who are not part of the far right get join up with the far right in in in political violence um and that others then get drawn into that even more so because they have nowhere to go because they feel nobody is representing them and nobody is listening to their issues you know and um what I keep trying to say to the progressives is listen we ha we we have to get a hold of this because if if we're just blind and constantly saying but everything's great the diversity is our strength we're we're all happy this is going to get worse and worse and eventually I I don't even know I don't I don't know I mean I genuinely I live in in in a sort of genuine fear about what's going to happen yeah likewise which is why I wanted to have this conversation what do you think the root causes are for what we saw in Southpaw look there as with anything there will be a whole variety of different causes I wouldn't want to Discount you know this idea that um the far right uh that there will have been some of them who organized and decided to stir up uh sensitivities um that were those rumors going around about who it was and so on um that uh you know there was that aspect but then we also need to ask ourselves but why were various people uh easily um uh inspired to participate in political violence um you see where where the reason why I'm so reluctant to just go oh it's the far right um is because that absolves all of us from um having to think about it and having to um think about the future and think what's the vehicle for the future um all the things that you said if these men feel that um they are not represented their views are not represented that their children are being taught things in schools that they wouldn't necessarily agree with that uh that their children are at risk um when a country is unable to protect uh its own children you know like it it is just so I mean those fames I can't imagine the horror and it's not just the three girls who sadly were murdered all of those children for the rest of their lives they will be affected by that I I I I just I can't I can't it it's just it is so horrifying um I just you know I'm so horrified by it when it happened I didn't even comment on it I didn't know what to say yeah I just thought I can't even put the Tweet out because it somehow it diminishes the the the it's just so awful I mean and it it's so awful especially in a in a in a day and age when you know I'm very much a a believer in allowing children to have some bits of freedom to don't leave them on social media at home you know get them out playing football take them to a dance class you know I just honestly I um I I I I find it so upsetting anyway I mean I I just uh that is so upsetting but then what is equally upsetting is that I feel like we're just running off a cliff because um because social media media divides us we're not listening to each other at all um the the progressives desperately need to to to know what's going on what how ordinary people feel and if they just label everybody as far right or they don't want to listen to them because it's GB news you know the way in which they talk about GB news is if it's just a bunch of Nazis you know talk radio you I the progressives should really do that because they're basically pushing everyone who doesn't agree with the progressive view into these arms and so if they want to be part of the conversation about what exactly how to deal with the problems they need to engage with the problems if we want to stop they as you say they're pushing these people in that direction and and so the fringes then will go further further in that direction and then we how do we come back from this you know I don't know what we do I mean at the look I I have to just you know we we all have to just um think what small things can we achieve that my small little dream at the moment is to try and explain to people schools are really important kids matter what they think matters the habits the values the knowledge that we give them matters and all of that then helps us see what things will be like in five years in 10 years that our schools are huge look I think in the 1950s everybody would have understood what I'm saying it would have just been normal people would not have thought of schools as merely vehicles to get results okay they they just wouldn't have thought like that there was no National curriculum there was no um uh uh uh set of national you know the you set of national exams that the school is being held to account for you as an individual did what you could do and then you took your exams right it the school would have understood that its job wasn't just let's get as high a a grade as we can on the leak tables the school would have been the school mistress in her classroom would have been thinking how do I develop my children to have those judeo-christian values that I was talking about personal responsibility a sense of Duty towards others a personal sacrifice when you know thinking about the whole kindness gratitude all of these she would have been instilling that in her children because she would have known that it was her responsibility to create those children into some that you would be proud of later when they are adults um I think we've lost that in education very much so uh and that that way of thinking you could talk about that entirely in isolation away from multiculturalism couldn't you like that all of that stuff I've just spoken about you could do it and not talk about multiculturalism but all of those values immediately help multiculturalism to succeed you know that that's the thing and and and where you know I've been very critical of progressors what would I be critical of the people on the on the right for one they talk incessantly about immigration I understand I agree but I I just think they're missing something when they're only talking about that when you say they're missing something by only talking about that do you mean to say that that's not going to sort all the problems out or okay so that's right and they're not seeing so the man who you know the perpetrator of the Southport incident was brought up in Wales um born in Cardiff Axel muga Ruda kubana is of Rwanda Heritage so he went to school now I'm not saying it's a school's fault okay I'm not saying that I'm saying that there is a culture in our country in our schools which teaches children either to hate their country to hate uh to feel their country hates them to feel very ashamed of who they are if they're white um and that is not helpful for white people or for black and brown people and uh it means that people do stuff and say say stuff that they wouldn't otherwise have done and said um and the values that I talk about in schools if we understand that the kids coming through our schools you know how many people understand that children that you know I've just explained to you about how history is taught and how little of it is taught and how actually kids are learning their history on Tik Tok and how many how many how many people get that how many people know what's going on on the right they don't have any idea and so they talk about the stuff that's obvious right that's in the media I'm saying that it's the stuff underneath the carpet that we have to be looking at about our institutions people talk about the march on the institutions and so on right that that's important the institutions create our society schools are the most important place for our the future of the country we should care about what's going on in our schools we should be interested nobody's interested nobody cares I find that even parents to some extent don't care now what I mean by that is not our parents Michaela I'm just saying parents across the country what do I mean by that everybody cares when their kid is in your six got to get him into a decent school got to get him into decent school oh ofstead say this school's outstanding oh I've got him in there brilliant that's it that's all M when your kid comes home from at the end of the day at school do you know what's happened how's your day darling fine okay dinner's at 6 that that that's what you don't have any idea what are they being taught what's their homework is it the right homework what have they been taught to hate their country that day what do you know I mean you have absolutely no idea what is being what your child is doing all day in school and so and nobody cares right parents sort of just want to get them into a good school whatever that means and then once they've done that they think it's okay and I mean the parents who can pay for Education they think oh I've got him into a good private school he's fine how do you know that yeah right right and I'm saying we all have to be interested in what's happening in schools not just with regard to the multiculturalism issue with regard to everything what are they being taught what knowledge are they being taught what values are they being Tau those two things if we get that right we are far more like to succeed as a country not just because multiculturalism would succeed but because everybody would be a lot smarter in their jobs everybody would be a lot more knowledgeable about history that's why Elon Musk is wrong the reason the reason why he says teach them how to think it's because he's worried because kids are being taught what to think and they're being taught bad things right and he knows that he's worried that they're being taught you know the British were evil slavers and uh and that's it and they're not being taught that the British um uh abolish slavery for instance right so he's saying teach them how to think but that doesn't even mean anything I think that's not actually would be the concern of let's say I don't know about Elon Musk but it's it's close but it would be more like uh K our kids are being taught that everything is a power Dynamic I postmodernist and there's an oppression oppressed and so when they think that our kids are being taught how to think as in to see the world as an oppressive oppressed and and so the answer is we need to teach them how to think that's not that way of thinking but notice how that is just teaching kids what to think right right yeah that is simply to teach them what to think just like murder is wrong hitting your friend is wrong um you know you need you need to find out lots of knowledge on something before you make a decision about it and not just assume that uh the world is in these two categories of oppressor and and and and victim uh that is to teach them what to think uh Elon is just disagreeing with what they are currently being taught and he's quite right to be disagreeing with that um what do we do about it well I mean look at the very least the first step is to get people to understand the importance of schools what do we do we've got a new labor government what should they be doing what would your message be to them and how they should manage manager education maybe even a broader question is what do you think are you hopeful or more pessimistic with the labor government coming in um what what does that mean for education in Britain well it's hard to say I mean obviously they're new Kier starmer I don't you know I'm I judge people on what they say and what they do um I I do worry though I worry that I I I worry look white Guild um and I'm not saying well I am saying i' I see more of that in the labor party for instance you know taking the knee in 2020 and so on um that was that would that that I think white people take the knee because of white guilt um and I know how much damage white guilt does uh because it influences every decision that is made not just political decisions but personal decisions everything it's there all of the time and it influences our culture so I'm not talking about Labor policies necessarily I'm just saying that if the people in charge are are riddled with white guilt and I say if because I don't know for certain how much but I do know for instance that kir St took the knee and that makes me go oh I don't like that and the reason I don't like that is that it makes me worry about how much guilt is inside him because I know that as a leader if he has lots of white guilt he will make a poor leader because culturally he will make decisions that are not good decisions because they'll necessarily be influenced by this knowing guilt in him which will make him do things that will will deal with that guilt perhaps giving him an image of somebody who's an anti-racist giving him an image of somebody who uh loves diversity um because if you don't love diversity therefore you're a racist then you couldn't possibly ever be a racist because that's unacceptable therefore I'm going to do things and say things that I wouldn't normally have done if it weren't for this white guilt that well I'd call it bring to make that super relevant to this month his first month as prime minister we had yesterday at time of recording he gave a press conference in response to the riots that happen in Southport but this month we've also had riots as I mentioned earlier in hair Hills in White Chapel in Rochdale none of which was white people or British indigenous or whatever you want to call it yes there was no such press conference but there's a different standard here now it might be as you say white Gil or it might be that he's swimming in these ideological Waters that's right that are adjacent to the white guilt ideology I guess yeah possibly anyway I'm just just to color what you just said the waters like that's important the the waters that we are in culture each strategy for breakfast right that and so it's all about say that again culture eats what strategy for breakfast it's it's one of those quotes that you know some Guru some business Guru or something I don't know that's what they say culture eat strategy for breakfast that's a great yeah that's exactly right that's what's happening yeah and and and and anyone who runs an organization you've always got to look at your culture so we wrote a book our teachers at school we wrote a book called The Power of culture where each one of my teachers writes a different chapter um I don't strategize I manage my culture at school that's what I'm doing all the time and my worry it's the same for the country our leaders should be managing the culture and if the culture is being managed by people who swim in the waters of white guilt and who feel that white guilt themselves we're in trouble now I don't know how much I don't know with K ster I don't know you make the point about the different um riots and so on I and I don't know enough about the different riots I I just don't know enough to be able to comment um uh properly on that so I don't know I I do I do worry I worry because so many white people are affected by this white guilt you almost you have to be exceptional not to have white guilt um because it's not their fault it's that um everybody tells you need to be guilty and all the white fragility and why I'm not speaking to white people about race and all those books are everywhere you go into water stones and you see them all laid out and so those are the books that you should read and if you turn on Netflix it's all about you know race is everywhere these days I I miss the 1990s I really do uh it wasn't like this and exactly I didn't know then just how lucky we were I didn't realize how it could change how H and the thing is my young staff who are 23 24 whatever 26 28 I mean I I have to keep saying to them you don't know what it was like I remember what it was like and it was different now look I have to say in the ' 80s there was I mean and in the '90s but especially in the ' 80s I remember there was some serious racism you know and racism that I suffered from at school and so on you know so you know I'm not saying it was all glorious but I kind of preferred that racism wow yeah I kind of I kind of did you kind of just knew how to deal with it and you just yeah I kind of preferred that I mean I say kind of you know I don't know I mean obviously as a kid growing up it was hard to be called names and so on you know racis you don't mean the riots you mean the kind of racism you exper in the 1980s yeah yeah I mean I preferred that racism to this weird racism that exists now when I say weird racism what I mean is the kind of condescension that comes from the progressives towards me uh calling me a useful idiot and so on uh their refusal to listen to anyone who doesn't think like them their Des desire to absolve themselves with their white guilt and therefore saying any number of things about race um just tell me what to say I'll say it just don't call me a racist kind of thing you know uh I am yeah it's it's um it's problematic I don't I don't know I don't know how fix this in I brought up the only time race would ever be bought up is if you were let's say quickly identifying people but essentially we were color blind and then all this stuff comes up over the last let's say 10 years and it trains you to race that's it so I I remember trying to like understand this new Progressive ideology I read all the woke Literature Like tanah hassy coats or eventually Robin D'Angelo and it it forces you to see race first before everything else right so I had to like get away from all that stuff and it rots your brain I mean that's right so people now will say to me oh we really want you to be part of our Board of XYZ dead um because you know we we need more diversity and I and I think to myself so sorry so I'm me I've done all my achievements everything I've done and all you can see when you look at me is that I've got brown skin you know and I don't that didn't used to happen you know it didn't used to happen so it um it's because people are being taught to only see race and only see religion uh and that is is is I thought that this some of this stuff might have gone away and that we might have seen that at its PE in 2020 and that seems to be there's been a significant push back against it that know you're shaking your head I'm wrong you think this is no I we could have another Summer of Love like we did in 20 I mean I guess we're kind of sort of having a inversion of the summer of the love right now yeah look I I I think you mix in um uh circles with lots of right-wing people which is fine I'm not criticizing you but I I don't think you you see what I I see and um in education yeah and uh I don't think um yes there are people who are pushing back but there's a whole bunch of people who are not hearing from those people at all uh the progressives they're not hearing from them and um when they do they double down you know you saw the the the the Senate half being attacked and the Winston Churchill and so on I mean all of these well you've seen all of that I mean this isn't you know it's that's not things getting better that's things getting worse um yeah I mean I I see it because I meet my teachers I I hear what you know I I I I I know what they're all struggling with look my teachers come and teach at my school um they're their friends they lose friends you know their boyfriends and girlfriend split up with them um it it this is this is a serious problem that we've got uh in in our society and um I and and we also follow America so what's happening with the Democrats and the divisions there um I've been doing some work with a school in the Bronx helping them um we were looking for a head of school trying to find somebody who didn't immediately at interview talk about everything through the prism of race was so difficult so hard I mean uh everything has been racialized Now in America it it didn't used to be like that in the 1990s it was not like that in America um and we tend to follow America with its Trends and we will especially follow America if white people are told you are a racist if you don't believe in Dei for example um because nobody wants to be called a racist because it's basically the worst thing you can call somebody um it's worse than that by the way because not only is that true but also if you call Cela a Dei vice president or anyone Dei then you're also racist for saying de you're racist if you say it exists and you're racist if you say you don't believe in it so either way you know that's right so we must put her in because we need Dei to to be successful how dare you then say it no we need to pretend that it didn't exist I mean it's just uh I I I don't I don't I I I don't know I don't know well look my very modest attempt now is to Simply get people to understand how important schools are uh and to understand what's happening in our schools and what we need to do in our schools to change things yeah um and this isn't me blaming schools I need to say this you know uh because uh it is so so hard to run a good school to run a good classroom you have to be countercultural how do we address that how do we teach our teachers um the British history that we'd like our kids to learn how do we um make sure that the values that we should be teaching our children our teachers have and that they should want to inculcate those values in our children you know um I think for instance some teachers will see their their role as being much more aligned with an idea of trying to encourage children to reject the establishment that you need to create little revolutionaries because the establishment is evil and we need to overthrow it and we need to teach them how to do that and they see that as being a good person that's what it is to be good um that teaching British history to kids because it's their history and a history they should be proud of but also critical of um that isn't it's not seen in that way and that um we you know the idea of being patriotic um I remember once uh uh one of the writers for the Sunday Times or times he came and um he uh Dominic Lawson and he came and uh he he saw the the kids and heard them singing God saved the king and he said to me Katherine are you deliberately trying to be controversial and uh and for singing the National Anthem yeah that's it and then he also heard the um the poem If You Know by Kipling and again Katherine what are you trying to do you know and uh and iing but it's a beautiful poem that really you know represents our values um I don't know it's particularly woring that the national anthem is considered controversial in this day and AG however Catherine I think we no no no but it is like hardly anyone sings it you go to any school they don't sing the national anthem you might at a few private schools once a term possibly at some Chapel event or something that they would sing the national anthem oh no it's never like it is massively controversial I mean yeah that's very worrying on a positive note and I I think that we have touched on some pessimistic aspects there at the end but positives I've taken away from this conversation is is that you've really hammered the idea of manage multiculturalism through Civic institutions and it's there's a lot of talk about universities how universities but no one thinks so much as about about secondary and primary schools and so that seems to I've really got that message from you in this conversation and some of the other positives I've taken from this is that teaching British history some of these aspects like some things like the national anthem that do do unify us it seems to me and and the values and the values of course right the these are ways which it's not actually that's secular actually there's there's an element of tradition and history to it and that to me gives me hope as the common culture I'd been looking for at the beginning of this conversation when you say secular it's interesting so when you say secular what do you mean without religion right have I got the wrong is that no I'm just wondering because actually it made me think oh well what do I mean when I say secular what do you mean when you say secular I suppose I've always thought of it as not of any one particular religion you know that we have all of our religions there that all of our children are of different religions and races and so on and that we have a multicultural community that we exist under one umbrella where we have shared values and shared rituals and shared knowledge and so on um but that we allow difference as long as it does not upset the whole I I yeah and that um that is something that we actively manage daily that we're thinking about all of the time um at Michaela at Michaela yeah exactly uh because we know how important culture is because it eats strategy for breakfast yeah I love that yeah Katherine thank you so much for your time is there anything you think we miss that you'd like to just anything you think needs clarifying um we sounds like we clarified a couple of your previous podcast interviews on this show so maybe if you'll do it on the next one but well you know and isn't it amazing CU it's so hard these topics are so complex that even with an hour and a half chat I come out thinking oh I should have said this oh I didn't say that Etc you know so yeah thank you for having me because it's such an important topic and I'm so thrilled to be able to talk about it in such detail with you because um I I do think much can be learned from what we do at Michaela and you know people think oh she's just so full of herself no it's just that I have an example of a multicultural Community that's hugely successful and it's because we manage it daily and I think Lots can be learned from it and how can people find you or Michaela you earlier in this conversation you invited people to come visit how would they do that yeah so uh well you could just Google Michaela community school and then you go on our website and you can visit the school there but I'm also on Twitter um you're very on Twitter yes yes Miss Snuffy is my missor Snuffy ffy um as in Miss Snuffleupagus is what I used to be when I wrote a Blog many many many years ago uh because Mr sopus is the big elephant in the room in Sesame Street oh so that's why I'm Miss Snuffy I'm still miss Snuffy somewhat embarrassingly seeing as I'm also meant to be the strictest head mistress in the in the country so um uh but yes that's why uh snuffle up iess that's so cool um well thank you so much and I hope we'll get to talk again I hope so too W thank you thank you for watching the Winston Marshal show if you want to SP the show all you have to do is press subscribe we will see you next time
they are being taught that Britain is bad because of its Colonial history because of slavery that Britain is racist if that's what they're learning all of the time ethnic minority kids grow up very angry and resentful of their country and the white kids will come out feeling deeply uncomfortable and very guilty about their country and about their white skin and what are the solutions to that well this is it it it is complex isn't it no when I say this people get angry can you tell me why that's offensive to people and that is where the the phrase diversity is our strength is hugely problematic the biggest threat to the country is what is being taught in schools you have absolutely no idea what your child is doing all day in school so I think Elon Musk is wrong when it comes to kids when it comes to schools what is he wrong he thinks that it it's so frightening all of this discussion on what Kamala is is she Asian is she black who the hell cares if we can't as a nation articulate what those things are what what hope do we have of dealing with what we're seeing on the society level which is horrific things are going to get worse and [Music] worse hello and welcome to the Winston Marshall show with me Winston Marshall I sat down with Katherine BBL Singh the head teacher and founder of the Michaela Community School in Northwest London the reason I wanted to talk to her is because England which is having suffering a great deal at the moment coming out the back of what happened in Southport and the following riots we wanted to look at multiculturalism something that she'd been talking about but also something that she has been doing with her schools now for over 10 years how to bring together different communities a multicultural Community into one common culture I think this might be the most important question facing our country today and so we went deep into that what she's doing at the school itself but also a look at the country uh politically but also different communities looking into education all aspects really what it is to be British what it is that unifies us it was an important conversation and one that I think will take a lot away from before you hear from Catherine if you want to support the show all you have to do is press subscribe if you do that we can explore more difficult important topics like this one and I can invite more phenomenal guests like Katherine onto the show but without further Ado Katherine bubling thank you for coming in the question I want to get to eventually is what is it that is the common culture for Britain yeah you've talked about managing Ing multiculturalism and I think you've used the language common culture is something that is to unify us the reason why I think this is so important well firstly I think this might be the most important question facing our country we're told every day diversity is our greatest strength I have to believe Unity is our greatest strength not against diversity but without Unity what good is it yeah I think you with your schools with the Michaela Community School you're actively doing it unlike all these other people on Twitter as we discussed you're putting your money away your mouth is you're and your issu who to ask but there's aext if for our listeners I I'll paint a little bit if you don't mind which is the it's been our country is ruling it's been a horri horrible month which has ended with the murder of the three girls in uh in Southport Elise dot stanum Alice DVA agua and BB King and that's then inspired a bunch of protests before that we had very shocking scenes also as well as the recent ones in in har Paul and White Hall and of course South but before that we had hair Hills we had Rochdale it seems that the country is there's rioting happening along tribal lines along sectarian lines exactly and I I don't remember our country ever being like this and so before getting to the big question about what unites us I thought it might be worth exploring and maybe coming to maybe we'll agree maybe we won't agree about what the problems are right now facing Britain and what the root causes of those problems are forgive me this is a broad question but what we've seen in the last month well actually I should say you've I've seen you do media and you have used the you've concentrated to talking about managing multiculturalism implicit there is that you think that there are some downsides to multiculturalism and that that related to what we've seen this month have I understood that correctly well I don't I wouldn't say that there are downsides necessarily it's just that it needs to be managed carefully so look uh I am the daughter of um uh my Jamaican mother and my indog Guyanese father I am uh the product of multiculturalism um but it doesn't come without its difficulties um when I was about 15 years old I discovered that I had four cousins these boys who were my brother's his brother's uh children um I had never met them um because uh for all those years um his brother had had not spoken to my father because uh he had married my mother um it it there are difficulties when it comes to managing multiculturalism and um that's because uh sometimes people can come with prejudices so I think that that that is a real uh issue you know people on the left I think when they accuse me think that I don't understand that I do get that but um I think it is also the case that different cultures come with different expectations and uh different demands and sometimes those demands Clash so as an example um at our school uh Muslims for instance eat meat but no pork Hindus eat meat but no beef um uh Muslims would like to eat halal meat Jews would like to eat kosher um uh siks cannot eat any type of meat that has been treated in a different kind of way so what do you do right well I tell you what we did we went vegetarian um and India did the same thing they've got all these different cultures well you know what we're going to do we're going to go vegetarian now I've had criticism from the right on that because their position is well you shouldn't Bend at all uh now I'm not saying everyone on the right thinks that some people in the right would say that I should just be serving normal food and that either people get with it or they don't um now why is it an issue for us because we have family lunch this is what we call it and we all eat the same food so there isn't any choice now you might want to get round it by just giving out a variety of different choice but it becomes complicated you know kosher Halal the kitchen is different you can't use the same utensils you know etc etc so there are logistical things when it comes to running institutions like hospitals and schools and so on uh that get in the way uh this idea that I think uh some progressives have which is that well multiculturalism is wonderful just throw everybody in a big pot and let's get to it it's all fine they don't recognize that some desires and demands clash and then you need some way of dealing with the Clash uh some way of of prioritizing and what we do at Michaela is that we prioritize um the success of the whole Community above the desires of any individual group or any individual person MH um so uh something that has nothing to do with multiculturalism uh for instance is uh our silent corridors uh people say to me why do you need silent corridors I mean they're not entirely silent we say good morning good afternoon but that's it we don't have conversations people think it's Draconian I why am I obsessed with this idea of having silent corridors well because I spent all my life working in the inner city and seeing what the corridors at inner city schools look like which is kids getting be beaten up uh bullying their heads being smashed into the walls and all sorts now um it's true that there are some kids who you could have perhaps your you're better behaved kids you're you know because you have naughty kids and then you have kids who are who are who are who are nicer let's say if you have a very selective environment you might not need silent corridors um if it's not selective well some of those kids it's true are having to be silent when they do they would be able to get along fine without being silent but they make that sacrifice for the betterment of the whole so all of our children and all of our families are told I explain all of this before they visit they come to the school they join the school and I say look we need to succeed as a team and as a as a whole school and in order to do that you're going to have to make certain sacrifices and that that's just the deal that's part of the deal uh you're going to have to eat vegetarian food at lunch doesn't mean you have to be vegetarian at home but you do have to be vegetarian at lunch because we can't make it work otherwise we can't make family lunch work and I love family lunch because and you will have to come and visit at some point um I love it because the kids serve each other food uh they have a a a chat as if you might do around the dinner table um they clean up after each other it's very different to the Cantine culture of I'm taking what I want to do me and I'm going to eat my food and then I might even leave my plate at the end for the cleaners to pick up because well it's not my responsibility and I very much want the children not to have that kind of attitude where they look after each other now those principles are more important than children being able to eat exactly what they want um so that principle of thinking about the success of the whole and prioritizing that over everything else and individual desires is what drives us now people then say well why are we talking about this one school you know I get that criticism from both the right and the left they say look Katherine you run a school what do you know about society and I would say it means I know everything about Society because school is a microcosm of society and what works in school tells us what could work in society um and not only that but schools make Society people you know one of these days I'm going to write a book called why children matter because I don't think we understand that children matter um you heard me the other day saying this actually um uh both right left doesn't matter the whole political Spectrum doesn't understand this everybody's concentrating on the adults and I understand why because we're all adults and we see the problems and we say oh my goodness how do we fix this right now and you're absolutely right we do need to concentrate on the now however in four or five years time the kids at school will be those adults right and if the schools could be a lever that we could pull to make it so that we could get on well as adults well why wouldn't we want to pull that and if it's the case that the schools are actually currently making it so that the kids are less likely to get on and that the adults that they will become are less likely to get on and that if the things we continue doing and thinking will ensure that multiculturalism really will fail don't we want to change that now this is what I'm trying to say to people and and and as soon as I start saying multiculturalism needs managing all hell breaks loose I mean I get threatened by the Press they start saying they're going to write an expose on the school and how it's so terrible and I'm thinking what are you going to write about the school the kids are really happy the parents are really happy the thing is I'm very used to all kinds of hit jobs in the media where they come after me because I'm not allowed to say that multiculturalism should be managed MH and I'm trying to ring a big alarm Bell here can you can you tell me why that's offensive to people what what's your di why people are offended by you saying we need to manage multiculturalism okay well I suspect that when people hear that they think I'm saying it's failed and the reason why it has failed is the fault of ethnic minorities and I think that progressives um so so the problem we have here is that those leaning to the right will say ethnic minorities aren't doing what they should do uh you know participate in society in a way that um we would like them to um uh you know I I often hear them say things like you know well there weren't that many black people at some Royal event or there weren't that many brown or black people at uh an event that uh had has to do with um the country you know participating in loving the country uh it could be a remembrance event or it could be um uh anything that is to do with Britain you know and then what they say is look if if if if eth minorities aren't going to participate on that kind of level then how on Earth can we all get on with each other uh people on the left they'll say the problem is the far right and racism um and if we don't stop the racism then uh we're never going to be able to succeed as a country that's how they see it um so very much with this Southport situation these are the two views I was hearing on on Twitter and the problem is social Med media divides everybody so uh the people on the left are only hearing from their people the people on the right are only hearing from their people and they literally have no idea what the other one is saying they have no idea and so those on the left for instance think I'm crazy and think what I'm saying is so deeply misguided um and uh you know that I've been radicalized and that um I'm a things they call me they call me a [ __ ] an idiot I'm a useful idiot for the far right um because I'm obviously somehow so stupid that I'm just promoting the far rights ideals um when I mean obviously I mean this is just crazy I mean it's just mad um I've I've worked all my life in the inner city this 25 years working with brown and black kids uh set up my own School in the inner city precisely to help brown and black kids of course there's a handful of white kids in there too um I love children of all colors and and and and spend my life working with them to enable social Mobility better than any other school in the country so this idea that um I somehow uh uh am helping the far right uh is just absurd um and what I'm begging them to listen to me on is if it's the case that I'm saying this stuff and I'm not trying to help the far right then what I'm why am I saying it why would I put myself in the firing line like this um if if if I don't believe that maybe you're doing something wrong and when I say doing something wrong look it's not the fault of schools okay I need to say this schools are so difficult to run well um it's so difficult to run well in particular in this culture uh that we have at at the moment where parents can be very demanding where perhaps headteachers will not get the support of the department uh for education or or from the media they're thrown into the Limelight and they're attacked left right and Center nobody want most head teachers have a mortgage to pay they want to walk their dog and feed their kids you know so if we live in a day and age where head teachers have to put themselves on the line in order to run a decent school well and that is the day and age we live in then then we already are in trouble but then you've got to be able to see beyond that so people always talk about our school we have great results we do have great results I I think it's the least interesting thing about our school and I'm always saying this okay look results come out in August our kids will do well I'll say isn't that great we've got you know and it'll be lovely and you know they'll they'll get much better results than they would have got elsewhere and that's great forget about the results look at who our kids are look at the people we have created okay now we get over 800 visitors every year uh over 7,000 people have come to visit the school this is not normal schools all over the world nobody gets these kinds of visitors why do we get these visitors because through word of mouth and through social media which I think is a Force for good and bad in this case good people have heard about us and they come and they cannot believe what they're seeing okay these are teachers I've had teachers break down in tears who were visiting who say but how is this possible right now A friend of mine works one of the local schools he came and he went round and he he came bursting into my office once when he was visiting for the first time and um he's been several times since and uh he said Katherine I've been talking to the kids and they all go to the same primary schools as our kids what have you done to them he just couldn't understand how come they're so kind and decent how come they're so chatty and articulate how come they're so ambitious and driven so there's something that we're doing with them right now what are we doing and this all Taps into the multiculturalism idea uh people think often when it comes to schools that if you want to fix something you need to fix that thing so what I mean is children are unhappy let's give them happiness lessons uh children lack self-esteem let's give them self steam lessons Okay that's how that's how we tend to think actually what we need to do is teach the children in a more traditional fashion the reason why it needs to be more traditional and when I say traditional what I mean is teacher standing at the front of the class leading the learning Being the adult Authority in the room holding the children to account teaching them both knowledge and values okay now when you do that teach them traditionally and hold to account and give them both knowledge and values you build their happiness you build their self-esteem and you give them values that will allow them to get on with each other and make sacrifices of on their own individual Desires in order to help someone else or perhaps to help their whole Community now if you get that balance right and you have that as your goal a multicultural community can succeed and so our Multicultural community that doesn't sound Multicultural anymore that sounds like a common culture because you you're instilling the same values amongst all the kids that's true but and this is this is the issue so at what point do you allow difference okay yeah at what point do you allow difference so it's funny because Freddy sers who is at unheard and um I uh did a I I I had a whole conversation with him for about 40 minutes um after we were taken to court over the uh prayer issue MH and uh we talked all about it that was last year no earli this year when you went to the high court because one of your students Muslim student wanted to pray and you forbade it yeah exactly well I mean yes sort of I mean basically uh they want they wanted a prayer room and we were saying no to this prayer room so um and it's funny because I then saw Freddy later on uh at dinner you know Weeks Later months later and um and he said well of course Catherine you don't allow anything religious in in in your school religion you have to say no to religion at the gates and I said this not true I haven't said that and he said well we talked about it for 40 minutes yeah yeah you do say that and I said no I don't and I thought isn't this fascinating that he and I have had this discussion and yet that's not what I'm saying so so what am I saying and this is my fault cuz I'm obviously not being clear enough um what am I saying there are some religious issues that we allow in our school I don't know the Muslim girls all wear hijabs we don't have a problem with that seat kids would wear bangal um uh there are there are various I don't know Christian kids might have a cross underneath their their shirts I don't mind about that well I can think of two from your school straight away which is that you have the national flag which is of course a Christian cross in fact if it's the Union flag there's two Christian crosses there's St George cross and St Andrew's cross yes but you also sing the national anthem which starts with God Save the King yes yes that's true so there is religion yes I suppose so that's a very good point so you see I mean I haven't even thought about it you've just said something to me that I haven't thought about now why haven't I thought about it so that and that's key MH because what I haven't done is said no to religion at the gates we are a secular Community I haven't said that what I've said is we're going to go along to get along and if there's something that's going to prevent us from getting along and sharing in our communal spaces and enjoying each other's company and being friends across religious and racial divides um if anything's going to stop that from happening I'll say no to that but I'll say yes to everything else that logistically speaking means that we can all get on with each other mhm that that's ultimately it so why are we vegetarian because logistically for serving meat would not have allowed us to do our family lunch and our family lunch is very important to us because of the values that family lunch teaches and those values are more important than the individual Community or religion's Desires in that moment and so we always put the team above the individual so it's about finding that balance and um okay so that I understand why and why the kids would understand the logic there what's the logic how do you explain why they should sing the national anthem and why you would have the British flag how do you explain that to a kid okay great question so uh we're all British um and I what does it mean to be British yeah it's a good question I mean when schools uh talk about British value they'll talk about the rule of law belief in democracy um and which America have both off so just as well be American as true that's true but it couldn't be lots of lots of countries so there is a distinction to Britain no but that's Western and that's important right that's that's an important distinction because I often think that we we forget that actually uh you know we don't push gay people off of buildings that our police aren't corrupt in the way that you will find in so many countries around the world so um and and I think if people traveled a bit more saw what other countries were like they might realize just how grateful we should be for be being able to live in a country like Britain you know um so I mean look uh there are all kinds of uh National characteristics like joining the queue and um uh eating beans and toast you know we serve um beans on potatoes you know you go to America they think you're a bit odd if you're eating well they don't even know what baked beans are let alone eating them on a potato you know and that's one of our standard dishes that we eat so I I I would and that would tie in I would say our Cuisine ties into the Traditions aspect of what it is to be a nation I'm quite Keen forgive me here exct and so other things they stand for their head mistress at assembly you know that's British schools do that um that wouldn't happen in most other Western countries for instance uh that is a tradition and a a ritual as you say that has been handed down through the through through the the years um we they stand for their head mistress this will be just after they've they've been singing God save the king or um I vow to thee my country or Jerusalem those are the three uh pieces of music that we'll do um and and then I tell them to sit down and then I give them an assembly uh why do we do that because I am the top of the tree at the school and it's about creating a kind of Aura around me I'm sort of The Wizard of Oz you never know what goes on in Miss bbal sing's office and there's a real sense of you don't want to get on Miss bble sing's list you know what is she going to say or you know heads of year will say what would Miss Bal Singh think of that behavior that kind of thing because you're you're creating an aura around me and I have to be very careful when I'm out and about in town you know and sometimes there's the Red Man and I think oh I want to cross and I think are there any kids around because I can't be seen to doing bad stuff you know IE a sense of hierarchy and Authority yes and role modeling you know where they want to be a certain type of person which is fantastic M but to my question about what it is to be British you look very close when you say that you chose those three anthems yes okay so why would you choose those three anthems because obviously they're not going to sing those in America to use my earlier example no because that seems to be closer to the thing our countries they they belong to us and you know what that thing of belonging to us you know Roger screw uh who a great philosopher and writer as you know uh sadly died recently um um he came to visit us H and um he spoke to the children about fox hunting I said oh let you're you're you believe in fox hunting I don't believe in fox hunting I said you know all about it come and tell us and persuade us that you know fox hunting is the thing to do so he did his best um I'm not sure he convinced any of but he did his best now he went around the school and I I genuinely think with had real impact on him changed his mind about something which I always feel really proud of because it was the great Roger scrutin after all and um I remember him saying to me and he he we wrote a book after that and he gave us a quote for the book uh which said that um it was a life-changing experience for him seeing the school because he saw brown and black children of the inner city being taught British history as if it was theirs m and that up until this point he had given up hope that ethnic minorities could ever be integrated into society in such a way that we could all get on with each other right and so and and that is key but that's different from culturalism no well let me come to that the British history those anthems uh British ways of life of eating be big beans and so on belong to us too right of course you say of course the thing is is that the culture nowadays is such that it encourage us it encourages us all to see each other as very different so in schools uh you might celebrate uh International Day and everybody brings their flag everybody dresses in their dress everybody brings their food right now look if that's done in amongst culture which is shared then that's okay but I would argue that things are far more divisive than what they should be so when you say that's not Multicultural okay look that's common culture that is there is a common culture but there's also a multicultural situation going on because the Muslim Girls cover their heads the other girls don't um uh the the the the seeks wear their Bangals the other kids don't you know um there are are there are differences that we Embrace and that we well we would never have any issue with um but as long as those differences don't upset the whole um and but you're and but you're absolutely right to say there has to be a common culture right there has to be and that is where the the phrase diversity is our strength is hugely problematic um what's diversity can be great as long as we are managing it properly right that that's the thing and uh we need to um we need to recognize this and I'm not you know when I say this people get angry but I'm not blaming anybody I'm not saying it's the fault of ethnic minorities I'm not saying it's the fault of white people I'm not saying you bloody white people why don't you uh be more tolerant I'm not saying you bloody brown and black people why don't I'm not saying that I'm saying that if each side and there are many sides because it's not just brown and black people white people with amongst the brown and black people you've got the Hindus and Muslims who will fight each other you've got the um sunnis and the Shia Muslims who will fight each other you got you got like it's much more complex so multiculturalism isn't just ethnic minority and white it's all kinds of cultures look we all love eating sushi and eating a curry um and these are important it's it we like it now it may be somebody on the right was telling me well we don't need to have that to hell with all that different food we just want what we want okay fine but you know what look before black and brown people ever came along um uh there were problems with multiculturalism in the country Catholics Protestants you know remember I mean like there it is it has always and angles and sactions the country was founded exactly where Angles and Saxons came together against the the Vikings the the the history of Britain is one of different cultures right just because there were no brown and black people or there were very few of them because you know there were a few um uh just because there were only you know the black and brown people are not the problem obviously it's it's the the issue is how do we make it so that different cultures can can get on with each other and um yes so I agree with that so cusine seems to be a bit of a red herring to me used from by both sides like left will say like isn't all this cusine great but and then the right I don't know what that response necessarily would be but I'm interested in what it isn't it's important because I'll tell you why it's important because that's an example of something that we could hang on to and we could still share a common culture right it it's about it's not all or nothing but food is never a why it's not going to be it's not going to be it doesn't food it might provoke some sentiment but it doesn't in the same way that reading the anthems will or knowing our history or or the the the kind of stories about our country the myth about our country doesn't provoke the same sort of sentiment as as what do mean provoke the same sort of well not provokes the wrong word but evoke rather um I guess what I'm trying to say uh say is that we have to to be part of a a nation a country we have a sense of a a commonality and part of that commonality is is history and a sh a shared culture and food is one aspect ECT of that what I find so interesting about what you've done with the school is that you've managed to have all these different not just different races but different religions with drastically different cultures come together and you've bound them together and I want to know what it is that thing that's binding them and food is one aspect of it yeah yeah and the reason I'm pushing for this pushing on this question is because I want to know what lessons we can get from your school apply to the whole society I'm sorry we can't apply the food thing to whole society we're not going to say to everyone right we're going to all e the same thing no but what one the lessons we can learn from your school are about the the history the the idea of shared history that everyone is everyone is in uh invited to participate in the history of this land Roger scrutin you brought up earlier he said what is it to be British his answer was place it's about this island it's about about how we're we're commune together in this island and I think I asked this question because I think the what I see about our country is that we're falling apart along these different lines what is it that we can all get behind and multiculturalism isn't enough because that's not a common culture that's so that's why I'm pushing on on those questions that's right but the the reason why it's important to talk about the food issue right to come back to it is because what the progressive is saying there at that point is saying well this stuff's really good so what's the problem right and the the point is that there are some differences that are great because they're not upsetting the balance of the whole yeah there are others that are problematic when it comes to institutions and so on now then there's the additional point which you're saying which is yes but what can we then share together now look history for instance is a really good um is a it's a really good uh subject to talk about uh the way in which history is taught in our school um so our kids know a lot of history they know a lot um you're not going to find other kids elsewhere who know more history than our kids now that's because we teach in a traditional fashion we teach we do quizzes every week we give lots of homework we have very high standards of behavior etc etc um if you don't have that then your kids are not being taught very much they just can't they don't have enough there's not enough time in the lessons to learn the the the teaching methods that are being used are not going to allow the children to remember this stuff as well as our kids will remember it um the structures the the the interruptions and behavior and so on it means they're not learning that much so then what are they learning in that short period of time and what are they remembering now if they are too often not always it'll depend on the school it'll depend on the classroom it'll depend on the history teacher but if too often they are being taught that Britain is bad that Britain was is bad because of its Colonial history because of slavery uh that Britain is racist in it at its core if that's what they're learning all of the time then ethnic minority kids grow up very very angry and resentful of their country because this is what they're learning they're not being taught here's the whole of British history and this belongs to you and here's some of the good and some of the bad and some of the interesting and let's talk about it and isn't it fantastic they're not having that experience which our children are having they're having an experience which is teaching them to feel deeply uncomfortable with their country the ethnic minorities will come out feeling like they're hated by their country and the white kids will come out feeling deeply uncomfortable and very guilty about their country and about their white skin and so uh where do that history where does that come from why is that the case is it is there not is it not in the National curriculum that they need to learn a certain thing how has it got to a place that history be is being taught in that way because it's sort of how many people's view British history now um if you look at the textbooks um if you uh you know it's not just textbooks that are used people create their own PowerPoints um if if just random teachers creating power points then you are actually um well it's up to the individual teacher we're at the mercy of how they see the world and if the teachers tend to have a very Progressive Outlook and if they feel deeply ashamed of their country um they're going to teach it in that kind of way um and it's entire we're at their Mercy uh you know this idea that which you sort of are suggesting that there is a curriculum and that we all have have the same resources and that the resources are all excellent and that we all go out there and teach in the same fashion that's not happening at all um as never happened um so but there is a national curriculum yeah but you don't necess I mean what does that mean there there are certain subjects that you should be teaching and even then you don't have to follow the national curriculum but even if you did I mean look all kids will learn history at school that's all the curriculum is saying teach them some history that's all I mean what you teach them in years seven eight and N is entirely up to you only 40% of children then go on to take it at GCSE so their history is taught at primary school and then in years s eight and N uh they're not held to account by any national exams on this they could be taught anything in that time um so and if the teachers tend to feel uncomfortable uh with their own history and British history and they teach it in such a way that makes children feel in the way that I've said then is it any wonder that we then have problems when they are adults and this is the sort of thing that I'm trying to say to people and and nobody's listening you're the only one Winston you're the only one who wants to talk about this um it it's uh I feel like you know it's a there's a pot of boiling water and the Flames are just they're increasing and increasing and increasing and I'm saying look turn the heat down for goodness sake we need to do something different with what's happening in our schools but nobody cares about schools uh people don't think they're important and this is on all sides of the political spectrum they don't think they're important um they think teachers are irrelevant um uh they think I think generally speaking people who don't teach think that well if you failed at life you become a teacher um they don't understand how hard it is how uh difficult it is not just to run a classroom to run a school and to you have to be countercultural to be saying to teach in the way that I'm suggesting right um if you're just doing what everybody else is doing well you're probably going to teach history in a way that I would find problematic are you teaching it BR British history so in the main although also Western so we would teach the French Revolution uh American Civil Rights for instance because we want them to have a general sense imagine was teaching the French Revolution in a positive light I remember not at your school well I assume not in your school well what I don't even know if they're teaching it and if they are do the kids remember it I don't know I don't think people who don't teach don't realize how little is actually taught in schools in the time that they have got if you've got one history lesson a week or possibly two where you actually manage to get about 30 40 minutes of teaching time if you're lucky where half the kids aren't really listening anyway where kids are on their phones or have earphones in and so on what are they learning if you're not using the correct teaching methods that will ensure that the children remember what you're teaching them children then learn their history from Tik Tok that's where they're learning their history okay so there's the there's the way in which we're teaching our children what the resources are how we're teaching them quite Poss to hate their country or to feel hated by their country and and what are the solutions to that then well this is it it it is complex isn't it um at the moment I'm trying the on a very basic level I'm just trying to get people to see the importance of schools and why children matter right I'm just trying to get everyone to understand this is on the right and the left that we need to look to our schools um that yes we need to deal with adults now I understand that but the future of the country is in the hands of the children and in the hands of our teachers right the biggest threat to the country is what is being taught in schools and not just so we talked about history and we talked about knowledge so our geography curriculum is all about place and Britain and children understanding their British geography right now so it's not just that values we need to come under values okay because that they're they're the biggest thing okay so we actively teach the children kindness gratitude self-sacrifice uh a a a sense of decency um so what do I mean by that um every lunch hour when we do our family lunch at the end of it they have to stand up and they have to give an appreciation to a room full of 200 people I'd like to give an appreciation to my dad for waking me up this morning and then we all go on the count of 2 one two and we all clap now why do we do that and it's not just gratitude uh announced publicly it's also privately we write we get the kids to write postcards to their teachers to Express gratitude for being taught x y and Zed because no matter how poor you are how difficult life is how challenging things are uh you should be grateful for what you've got um and you should be grateful because you have more than somebody else but you should be grateful because gratitude makes us happy okay now um and this is where so they put on happiness lessons no no no no no happiness is a byproduct right it's through so all the self-help books out there all of them and I've read loads of them and not for me but I read them because I think isn't it funny this is exactly what we're doing at mcka and I read them to show my staff to explain to them why do we do this okay uh all of those self-help books talk about the same values that we're teaching our kids so when people have their breakdown at 45 you know midlife crisis and say what's the point of life Etc and they get those books had they gone to Michaela they wouldn't be having that midlife crisis okay because they would have had instilled in them to make it a habit of who they are uh the sense of kindness towards others so as an example kid drops his plate or actually the whole tub of lasagna that he's taking back to the um vegetarian lasagna obviously um taking back to the front and he's carrying it and let's say it all falls and loads of lasagna goes everywhere in many other schools es with a challenging intake what would happen at that point is the kids would all start going that's what they do right my school yeah okay right right so you remember exactly and it's horrible because they're laughing at the kid right and it it's not nice it's not kind at our school if that were to happen well and it has happened five or six kids will run I've seen kids put their fingers into wet lasagna to pick it up off the floor and put it in the tin because they want to help their their classmate now I've seen that a hundred times over in many different ways okay now what motivates them to do that what motivates them to go ah my classmates's in trouble as opposed to right kindness gratitude decency right a sense of personal responsibility for my behavior that I need to be a decent person now children need to be habituated in the this behavior and in in these values okay so the the problem self-help books have is that they they get to you too late you know you're reading them at 25 or at 45 and then it's all oh yeah right okay this is revolutionary write down five things that I'm grateful for at the end of the day okay I'll start doing that now why do they do that why do they say that they say that because they want a ritual daily ritual of forcing you to think about what you're grateful for we get the kids to stand up and give appreciations a daily ritual these feelings these values need to be habituated okay now if you do that in children when they're young they'll keep that for the rest of their lives now obviously there are bad eggs obviously not all children who are habituated in this way does it necessarily work with I say that every single one of our child moves from here to here now some of them move even further right but every single one of them is a better person for having been at Michaela there's no question now I do worry about when they leave us how much of that will they lose how much will they ping to the to the in the direction that I think the media and Society ends up stoking you know the division that we talk about um because diversity is our strength you know what are these values that we should be and you say what is the common culture well that that I just talked about a sense of personal responsibility you haven't done your homework well you're not blaming the bus it's your responsibility right once you get that when you're in the workplace later and you don't don't deliver something you're not going to your boss well it was so so fault it was so so fault you your your response is it's on me sorry my fault right do you think it's unfair for me to think that traditionally schools would have got those values from Biblical scripture and this pushes me to the question I think is a part of it is that are is Britain a Christian country which is a very difficult question because obviously we are we have multi many religions we have 4 million Muslims for example uh who British Muslims and so is the common culture to do with Christianity do you think how important is that to us I mean as I said earlier there's Christian aspects to Mela even if it's very subtle and and and underneath yes um well the country's uh history has been Christian um and so clearly those judeo-christian Val values are everywhere um I think we often take them for granted um in our society I think um uh progressives will uh they just assume that well everybody thinks like this this is normal it's not normal it's been normalized in the country through us having a history of Christianity um and it's we Christianity has done such a good job we don't even realize that it's not normal at all that Romans when they had a baby they didn't want they just used to leave the baby out in the sun to die you know that uh the idea of of of being kind to your neighbor why would you do that you want to kill him so you can take what he has you know like like that that is normal what we have here in the west is not normal and that's why we should be grateful for it and we should appreciate it um so yes our values at Michaela are Judo judeo-christian in their in their beliefs and in their ways because that's those are the values that we've all grown up with um does that does that yes for your non-Christian students is that a is that a problem is is there every difficulty there friction there no never no but then I'm we're not going around saying this is judeo Christian you better do what we say I mean this is just what the school is and nobody's going to say well it's wrong to teach children kindness it's wrong to teach them gratitude the children love us you know they love the school um the parents love the school they know how much the children are learning and how happy they are everyone who comes to visit the school I mean this is the thing you don't want to believe me about the school anyone out there listening come and visit us just sign up on the website come and see what we do see how happy the children are um and how most importantly they are friends with each other across racial and religious divides that they don't think about who is what from where what religion they are and so on it's just they don't care now and they don't care because we share in this community and we are all kind to each other um if on the other hand in a school uh things so somebody called me authoritarian the other day and I am everything I know I know it's very unfair isn't it so the thing is I am that way with kids I believe we know better as adults and I think we need to impose those values on children MH um so I think Elon Musk is wrong when it comes to kids when it comes to schools why is he wrong he thinks that uh as many people do on the right because they're Libertarians um he thinks that it's wrong to teach children what and that you need to teach children how teach them how to think is what everybody says don't teach them what to think you have to teach them what to think I thought no you made this point fantastically on Jordan's EP uh podcast I think it's a brilliant point and actually if you just the more knowledge the less likely you are to get caught into ideologies because you have these other facts not just knowledge and I didn't make this clear enough with with right I didn't it was I I I was annoyed with myself afterwards look uh and it's you know your listeners that can listen to the Jordan Peterson podcast stuff about knowledge we need to teach them two things knowledge and values right and I didn't push that point on the values what we don't do is say to kids there's this thing called Murder some people think it's good some people think it's bad you decide we don't do that what we do is we say murder is wrong and you should not murder we also say uh hitting your toddler friend is wrong no no don't do that that's wrong that's bad no right yeah and then when they say I want that no don't grab we don't grab say please we tell them what to say we tell them what to do this idea that we should just let them do whatever they want and just teach them how to think how do you teach a three-year-old how to think that's insane it really is and the thing is people on the right are saying it people on the left are saying it you know I've always said that the the Spectrum the Left Right spectrum is a circle right it is not a a line so people say far right far left no no no no far right far left that that's what or horseshoe whatever that's what's going on right and the Libertarians don't realize how much they are playing into the hands of the far-left because they're just saying let everybody be free let them do whatever they want and then the far-left fill those vacuums the culture vacuums and um and we are where we are and I say where we are where we are and and I and I do hold uh the the progressive Outlook responsible um and I really hope some progressives listen to this although I don't know if they will you know but I really hope that they will um they're responsible for what exactly okay so if we are if as a white person um you feel bad about your privilege and if that feeling has you doing things that you perhaps wouldn't have done otherwise or saying things that you wouldn't have said otherwise that skew things for all of us um so um now look I I understand why white people might feel like this because they're being made to feel like that because that's the narrative uh Britain is bad Colonial history is bad Britain is racist you're a racist if you think X or Y you don't want to be a racist because racism these days has been um it's now got the power of I don't know it's worse than anything like the idea of being called a racist you'd rather be called a murderer than be called a racist you you you simply cannot be that thing and so you'll avoid it as a white person and look some genuinely decent white people who are progressives they want to make it so that multiculturalism can succeed and they think that the problem lies with them they think that the problem lies with white people not being understanding enough or not being uh liberal-minded enough uh being too racist and so they then think well what do I need to do and they're told what you need to be is anti-racist and if you think these things if you believe in uh Dei if you change the things that you you know it's wrong for you to hold on to the idea that uh baked beans on toast is a good idea or it's wrong for you to think that the royal family is important or whatever it is they then go okay okay cuz white people are ma are being made to feel deeply uncomfortable about who they are and um that's not helpful for them or for ethnic minorities and it's certainly not helpful for us all getting on with each other I think it's even worse than that and I think part of the reaction and the push back we're seeing now amongst let's say Patriot types yes exactly is that they see that their kids are getting taught that they their white kids have privilege whatever but they also look at the statistics and see oh white workingclass kids are the least successful in school in education and they don't want their kids to be treated differently from anyone else they consider it their country and they think it's absurd and that actually builds up resentment and then the then the next step in the danger the next danger in that line of thinking is okay well we need to prioritize the white kids now as reaction which is I think has come from progressivism and maybe it's an answer to the question that's right everything you're saying absolutely that the progressive idea is judging people by different racial ID or ethnic identities means that you're going to put get resentment amongst whites that's right look look at the the run in the the the campaign for the Democrats in in America it's entirely on racial lines white men for Kamala black women for Kamala back to the Democrat Roots I mean indeed like it it's so frightening all of this discussion on what Kamala is is she Asian is she black who the hell cares it's just crazy I want to know what her policies are I want to know what kind of person she is what are her values what do she think's important I I just look and it's funny because for me it's interesting because Kamala being her mom is from India her dad is from Jamaica my mom is from Jamaica my father is indog gyane so for the first time some famous person is my background basically you know Heritage racial Heritage you feel like she represents your ideas well this what so crazy I totally disagree with everything Camala has to say I mean like and but but but it's neat it's quite neat I think oh well there's somebody with my Heritage so it's not completely meaningless your heritage obviously it means something but it's just it's just quite cute that's all and so we're losing sight of what's really important and um and we're losing so when I say multiculturalism needs to be managed it needs a muscular management you know in the way that we do it and it's not just that multiculturalism needs management schools need management right but isn't managing schools managing multiculturalism and this is actually different to how I came into this conversation I mistook you saying manage managing multiculturalism as another way of saying finding common culture which actually that's separate things it's like there's managing multiculturalism and there is finding common culture to unify us as a people have I misunderstood that yeah I think that's right I think I think what you just said there is right at the end yeah isn't it interesting you know when I say about Freddy and that conversation I had and he Mis we misunderstood each other you and I like these ideas are so complex it's really hard to drill down into them look managing yes I think schools need to manage multiculturalism I think the media and Society needs to manage multiculturalism um and we don't do that by separating kids looko kids are separated like it's not just in America like it's not as bad here but there's the LGBT group there's the Muslim group there's the Hindu group there's the black Caribbean group now it may not be done uh officially although some groups will be created officially by certain groups um they'll say this is our LG btq day for instance and so on as opposed to we we're all children together um they when we divide children into groups like that they identify with their tribe right and when if black people are on Twitter and they're only looking at black Twitter then they only see black people and they're only identifying as a black person as opposed to but I'm British and I'm British before I'm black right I'm a black British person like and that's and that's great and you could be a Muslim British person and you can be a Hindu British person and you can be a white British person right and there will be differences we may eat some different foods uh we may wear different clothes um but there is a common culture under which we survive and get on with but we are unable as a country to articulate what that is and I'm just going to emphasize this I agree with that not only is that a problem which we see we've seen this month but if current migration Mass migration levels are what they are which is roughly 700,000 net a year gross 1.2 million so we're importing so many people or welc or rather inviting so many people on you know what I'm about to say on this huge level into this country at a way that we couldn't possibly yes assimilate or integrate like we used to where there was was a time assimilation wasn't didn't mean getting rid of your culture it means being part of the culture yeah yeah so the problem we've got as a country is we can't come together and even Define what it is to be British although I think you've kind of done that with your school some of the things it's kind of History it'ses Traditions which I think Cuisine comes under the tradition aspect yes yes yes yes and if we can't as a nation articulate what those things are what what hope do we have of dealing with what we're seeing on the society level which is horrific like it's really terrifying we're seeing all these anything and and sorry for me to pull out back to that but I think that's what's so important about what you've done at the Michaela it's it's it's bloody if not an example at least a bloody attempt yes to unite everyone it's an example I think it's an example it's an example I think that we should all learn from and um that's why I say our results are not that interesting I mean they are but actually it's it's who our kids are and how they get on with each other and how they're not divided and how they're willing to sacrifice things that are important to themselves for the betterment of the whole that they get that the team is more important than the individual you know that it's so important and it's and it's so important for us to recognize that that this needs to happen when they are children so what look your point about immigration 100% like I agree with you 100% uh it's crazy to have so many people coming in from outside who have different values and different cultures and so on and then how on Earth do we them and it's a real problem um I I agree with that I think sadly when people hear me say manage multiculturalism they think I mean all these brown and black people they're a major problem I mean and that's not what I'm saying um and neither are you saying that all immigration is bad you're just saying too much immigration is bad because it upsets the whole we come back to that right I'm not even quite saying that but but let's say I am okay we're H I am anyway I'm happy with any number of things any number of diversity issues different types of food different types of dress uh different types of dancing we all love salsa dancing and so on right all of that happy with all kinds of differences different types of religion I'm happy with mosques and churches and temples I don't mind that it's fine as long as it doesn't upset the whole right happy with immigration as long as the number don't upset the happiness of the whole so I think that is but they are in both cases yes no no absolutely and so that needs to change but what's important that I think I think people on the right now get distracted by the IM the immigration conversation I I'm not saying it's not right and true and they're you know I I agree okay but if you're constantly only looking at that and only talking about that you're missing the big issue that's going on that in our schools right now children are there being taught or being immersed in a culture that is teaching them either to hate themselves or to hate their country or that their country hates them and they are becoming the adults so yes you have adults coming in from outside who don't get the culture but you've got our own people here both white and non-white who are also so not loving their country and buying into the national culture because it's all going wrong when they were younger in their schools so it's not just an immigration problem you know the the the people I'm even more pessimistic now than when we started and this is what I'm trying to tell people I'm trying to you know and I'm riging alarm Bells here right look and I'm ringing alarm bells for those on the right who don't tend to understand that point but I'm also ringing alarm bells for those on the left who I know they want what's best I know they want everybody to get on but we can't just kid ourselves into getting along we can't just pretend that we're all getting along when we're clearly not what I found so bizarre about discussions that I would have on Twitter is that they would be going on about the far right and how terrible it is and so on but how dare you say that multiculturalism needs to be managed and I'd say but the fact that the far right exists just shows it's that is that is proof of the fact that we need to manage multiculturalism right because if if we were all getting along happily then we wouldn't be having riots right like obviously we're not and and where I need to push back on the Progressive is when they sort of just say yeah but they're Psychopaths when they label them the far right I'll tell you what the problem is with that look I mean yes there were far-right groups that were involved and yes uh you know it's bad to be on the far right and you know people say well you need to condemn it I condemn that right absolutely I think that the people who are involved in those riots should be punished it's absolutely Dreadful I'm the strictest headmistress in Britain clearly I think people need to be held to account for their behavior however there's also people who will be involved there who are not necessarily part of those farri groups and what I mean by that who may have rioted even who won't have been part of those farri groups because there and so and so throws a brick and you get you get H up in the moment and you throw a brick and you go yeah yeah well no I go further than that is that they're not necessarily we don't know what their politics are and if their politics are who they elected they're labor so they're not far right politically but it's when three of our daughters yes are exactly and by the way this isn't just happened out of nowhere this is in the context of the grooming gangs I think that's happened for decades up and down the country and all the what can you expect of men who have been told constantly no we're not going to do anything about the fact that your daughters are raped groomed and sometimes killed yes exactly and and and we can talk about like the plus sides of immigration but let's talk about the negatives the plus sides might be that we draw against Switzerland in the Euros the negatives also include the grooming gangs that that wouldn't have happened if there wasn't why you want to push back on you positives are well for instance you have me as a headress I'm me you know you have lots of ethnic minorities who are you know you go to a a hospital you're hard pushed to find a white doctor you know there's they're all brown and black you know like like the fact is the the ethnic minorities contribute massively to society you know so we don't want to say that that's not the case um but but so I I made this point to to be that all of these people that we're called fire right and if they're if they're engaging in political violence then it's probably a Justified to call them far right but a lot of them we don't know what their politics are they might not have any politics and they're just angry men who are that their daughters are being and we don't know who is what that that's exactly that's exactly right we don't know and there will be some who are part of fire groups fine but there's a whole bunch of them who are angry and are reacting and then I I I suppose what the progressive would say is but yes but they threw uh bricks at at the MOs MOS you know which by the way just for clarity of anyone's listening I agree with you they should be punished it's not acceptable ever political violence is never acceptable just for that exactly it's awful um and it's interesting because when try and find as you are want to talk about the explanations for why this is happening I'm told by progressives that I'm excusing their behavior and I'm saying no of course I'm not I'm the strictest headmistress in Britain I am not excusing their behavior I'm trying to find explanations why am I trying to find those explanations not to say that it's okay for them to behave that way but so that there aren't more and more of these incidents happening in the future MH because if if I don't if we don't find the if we don't understand the explanation and if we don't accurately pinpoint what's going wrong in our country then things are going to get worse and worse um some months ago I talked about multiculturalism at the arc Conference in October last year uh is a 10-minute um little speech I gave which some of your listeners might want to listen to and I I talk about exactly this multiculturalism how to make it work and the reason I did that and the reason I keep talking about multiculturalism is because I very much feared what would happen which is exactly what has happened that uh the the far right starts to get angry and starts taking notice that people who are not part of the far right get join up with the far right in in in political violence um and that others then get drawn into that even more so because they have nowhere to go because they feel nobody is representing them and nobody is listening to their issues you know and um what I keep trying to say to the progressives is listen we ha we we have to get a hold of this because if if we're just blind and constantly saying but everything's great the diversity is our strength we're we're all happy this is going to get worse and worse and eventually I I don't even know I don't I don't know I mean I genuinely I live in in in a sort of genuine fear about what's going to happen yeah likewise which is why I wanted to have this conversation what do you think the root causes are for what we saw in Southpaw look there as with anything there will be a whole variety of different causes I wouldn't want to Discount you know this idea that um the far right uh that there will have been some of them who organized and decided to stir up uh sensitivities um that were those rumors going around about who it was and so on um that uh you know there was that aspect but then we also need to ask ourselves but why were various people uh easily um uh inspired to participate in political violence um you see where where the reason why I'm so reluctant to just go oh it's the far right um is because that absolves all of us from um having to think about it and having to um think about the future and think what's the vehicle for the future um all the things that you said if these men feel that um they are not represented their views are not represented that their children are being taught things in schools that they wouldn't necessarily agree with that uh that their children are at risk um when a country is unable to protect uh its own children you know like it it is just so I mean those fames I can't imagine the horror and it's not just the three girls who sadly were murdered all of those children for the rest of their lives they will be affected by that I I I I just I can't I can't it it's just it is so horrifying um I just you know I'm so horrified by it when it happened I didn't even comment on it I didn't know what to say yeah I just thought I can't even put the Tweet out because it somehow it diminishes the the the it's just so awful I mean and it it's so awful especially in a in a in a day and age when you know I'm very much a a believer in allowing children to have some bits of freedom to don't leave them on social media at home you know get them out playing football take them to a dance class you know I just honestly I um I I I I find it so upsetting anyway I mean I I just uh that is so upsetting but then what is equally upsetting is that I feel like we're just running off a cliff because um because social media media divides us we're not listening to each other at all um the the progressives desperately need to to to know what's going on what how ordinary people feel and if they just label everybody as far right or they don't want to listen to them because it's GB news you know the way in which they talk about GB news is if it's just a bunch of Nazis you know talk radio you I the progressives should really do that because they're basically pushing everyone who doesn't agree with the progressive view into these arms and so if they want to be part of the conversation about what exactly how to deal with the problems they need to engage with the problems if we want to stop they as you say they're pushing these people in that direction and and so the fringes then will go further further in that direction and then we how do we come back from this you know I don't know what we do I mean at the look I I have to just you know we we all have to just um think what small things can we achieve that my small little dream at the moment is to try and explain to people schools are really important kids matter what they think matters the habits the values the knowledge that we give them matters and all of that then helps us see what things will be like in five years in 10 years that our schools are huge look I think in the 1950s everybody would have understood what I'm saying it would have just been normal people would not have thought of schools as merely vehicles to get results okay they they just wouldn't have thought like that there was no National curriculum there was no um uh uh uh set of national you know the you set of national exams that the school is being held to account for you as an individual did what you could do and then you took your exams right it the school would have understood that its job wasn't just let's get as high a a grade as we can on the leak tables the school would have been the school mistress in her classroom would have been thinking how do I develop my children to have those judeo-christian values that I was talking about personal responsibility a sense of Duty towards others a personal sacrifice when you know thinking about the whole kindness gratitude all of these she would have been instilling that in her children because she would have known that it was her responsibility to create those children into some that you would be proud of later when they are adults um I think we've lost that in education very much so uh and that that way of thinking you could talk about that entirely in isolation away from multiculturalism couldn't you like that all of that stuff I've just spoken about you could do it and not talk about multiculturalism but all of those values immediately help multiculturalism to succeed you know that that's the thing and and and where you know I've been very critical of progressors what would I be critical of the people on the on the right for one they talk incessantly about immigration I understand I agree but I I just think they're missing something when they're only talking about that when you say they're missing something by only talking about that do you mean to say that that's not going to sort all the problems out or okay so that's right and they're not seeing so the man who you know the perpetrator of the Southport incident was brought up in Wales um born in Cardiff Axel muga Ruda kubana is of Rwanda Heritage so he went to school now I'm not saying it's a school's fault okay I'm not saying that I'm saying that there is a culture in our country in our schools which teaches children either to hate their country to hate uh to feel their country hates them to feel very ashamed of who they are if they're white um and that is not helpful for white people or for black and brown people and uh it means that people do stuff and say say stuff that they wouldn't otherwise have done and said um and the values that I talk about in schools if we understand that the kids coming through our schools you know how many people understand that children that you know I've just explained to you about how history is taught and how little of it is taught and how actually kids are learning their history on Tik Tok and how many how many how many people get that how many people know what's going on on the right they don't have any idea and so they talk about the stuff that's obvious right that's in the media I'm saying that it's the stuff underneath the carpet that we have to be looking at about our institutions people talk about the march on the institutions and so on right that that's important the institutions create our society schools are the most important place for our the future of the country we should care about what's going on in our schools we should be interested nobody's interested nobody cares I find that even parents to some extent don't care now what I mean by that is not our parents Michaela I'm just saying parents across the country what do I mean by that everybody cares when their kid is in your six got to get him into a decent school got to get him into decent school oh ofstead say this school's outstanding oh I've got him in there brilliant that's it that's all M when your kid comes home from at the end of the day at school do you know what's happened how's your day darling fine okay dinner's at 6 that that that's what you don't have any idea what are they being taught what's their homework is it the right homework what have they been taught to hate their country that day what do you know I mean you have absolutely no idea what is being what your child is doing all day in school and so and nobody cares right parents sort of just want to get them into a good school whatever that means and then once they've done that they think it's okay and I mean the parents who can pay for Education they think oh I've got him into a good private school he's fine how do you know that yeah right right and I'm saying we all have to be interested in what's happening in schools not just with regard to the multiculturalism issue with regard to everything what are they being taught what knowledge are they being taught what values are they being Tau those two things if we get that right we are far more like to succeed as a country not just because multiculturalism would succeed but because everybody would be a lot smarter in their jobs everybody would be a lot more knowledgeable about history that's why Elon Musk is wrong the reason the reason why he says teach them how to think it's because he's worried because kids are being taught what to think and they're being taught bad things right and he knows that he's worried that they're being taught you know the British were evil slavers and uh and that's it and they're not being taught that the British um uh abolish slavery for instance right so he's saying teach them how to think but that doesn't even mean anything I think that's not actually would be the concern of let's say I don't know about Elon Musk but it's it's close but it would be more like uh K our kids are being taught that everything is a power Dynamic I postmodernist and there's an oppression oppressed and so when they think that our kids are being taught how to think as in to see the world as an oppressive oppressed and and so the answer is we need to teach them how to think that's not that way of thinking but notice how that is just teaching kids what to think right right yeah that is simply to teach them what to think just like murder is wrong hitting your friend is wrong um you know you need you need to find out lots of knowledge on something before you make a decision about it and not just assume that uh the world is in these two categories of oppressor and and and and victim uh that is to teach them what to think uh Elon is just disagreeing with what they are currently being taught and he's quite right to be disagreeing with that um what do we do about it well I mean look at the very least the first step is to get people to understand the importance of schools what do we do we've got a new labor government what should they be doing what would your message be to them and how they should manage manager education maybe even a broader question is what do you think are you hopeful or more pessimistic with the labor government coming in um what what does that mean for education in Britain well it's hard to say I mean obviously they're new Kier starmer I don't you know I'm I judge people on what they say and what they do um I I do worry though I worry that I I I worry look white Guild um and I'm not saying well I am saying i' I see more of that in the labor party for instance you know taking the knee in 2020 and so on um that was that would that that I think white people take the knee because of white guilt um and I know how much damage white guilt does uh because it influences every decision that is made not just political decisions but personal decisions everything it's there all of the time and it influences our culture so I'm not talking about Labor policies necessarily I'm just saying that if the people in charge are are riddled with white guilt and I say if because I don't know for certain how much but I do know for instance that kir St took the knee and that makes me go oh I don't like that and the reason I don't like that is that it makes me worry about how much guilt is inside him because I know that as a leader if he has lots of white guilt he will make a poor leader because culturally he will make decisions that are not good decisions because they'll necessarily be influenced by this knowing guilt in him which will make him do things that will will deal with that guilt perhaps giving him an image of somebody who's an anti-racist giving him an image of somebody who uh loves diversity um because if you don't love diversity therefore you're a racist then you couldn't possibly ever be a racist because that's unacceptable therefore I'm going to do things and say things that I wouldn't normally have done if it weren't for this white guilt that well I'd call it bring to make that super relevant to this month his first month as prime minister we had yesterday at time of recording he gave a press conference in response to the riots that happen in Southport but this month we've also had riots as I mentioned earlier in hair Hills in White Chapel in Rochdale none of which was white people or British indigenous or whatever you want to call it yes there was no such press conference but there's a different standard here now it might be as you say white Gil or it might be that he's swimming in these ideological Waters that's right that are adjacent to the white guilt ideology I guess yeah possibly anyway I'm just just to color what you just said the waters like that's important the the waters that we are in culture each strategy for breakfast right that and so it's all about say that again culture eats what strategy for breakfast it's it's one of those quotes that you know some Guru some business Guru or something I don't know that's what they say culture eat strategy for breakfast that's a great yeah that's exactly right that's what's happening yeah and and and and anyone who runs an organization you've always got to look at your culture so we wrote a book our teachers at school we wrote a book called The Power of culture where each one of my teachers writes a different chapter um I don't strategize I manage my culture at school that's what I'm doing all the time and my worry it's the same for the country our leaders should be managing the culture and if the culture is being managed by people who swim in the waters of white guilt and who feel that white guilt themselves we're in trouble now I don't know how much I don't know with K ster I don't know you make the point about the different um riots and so on I and I don't know enough about the different riots I I just don't know enough to be able to comment um uh properly on that so I don't know I I do I do worry I worry because so many white people are affected by this white guilt you almost you have to be exceptional not to have white guilt um because it's not their fault it's that um everybody tells you need to be guilty and all the white fragility and why I'm not speaking to white people about race and all those books are everywhere you go into water stones and you see them all laid out and so those are the books that you should read and if you turn on Netflix it's all about you know race is everywhere these days I I miss the 1990s I really do uh it wasn't like this and exactly I didn't know then just how lucky we were I didn't realize how it could change how H and the thing is my young staff who are 23 24 whatever 26 28 I mean I I have to keep saying to them you don't know what it was like I remember what it was like and it was different now look I have to say in the ' 80s there was I mean and in the '90s but especially in the ' 80s I remember there was some serious racism you know and racism that I suffered from at school and so on you know so you know I'm not saying it was all glorious but I kind of preferred that racism wow yeah I kind of I kind of did you kind of just knew how to deal with it and you just yeah I kind of preferred that I mean I say kind of you know I don't know I mean obviously as a kid growing up it was hard to be called names and so on you know racis you don't mean the riots you mean the kind of racism you exper in the 1980s yeah yeah I mean I preferred that racism to this weird racism that exists now when I say weird racism what I mean is the kind of condescension that comes from the progressives towards me uh calling me a useful idiot and so on uh their refusal to listen to anyone who doesn't think like them their Des desire to absolve themselves with their white guilt and therefore saying any number of things about race um just tell me what to say I'll say it just don't call me a racist kind of thing you know uh I am yeah it's it's um it's problematic I don't I don't know I don't know how fix this in I brought up the only time race would ever be bought up is if you were let's say quickly identifying people but essentially we were color blind and then all this stuff comes up over the last let's say 10 years and it trains you to race that's it so I I remember trying to like understand this new Progressive ideology I read all the woke Literature Like tanah hassy coats or eventually Robin D'Angelo and it it forces you to see race first before everything else right so I had to like get away from all that stuff and it rots your brain I mean that's right so people now will say to me oh we really want you to be part of our Board of XYZ dead um because you know we we need more diversity and I and I think to myself so sorry so I'm me I've done all my achievements everything I've done and all you can see when you look at me is that I've got brown skin you know and I don't that didn't used to happen you know it didn't used to happen so it um it's because people are being taught to only see race and only see religion uh and that is is is I thought that this some of this stuff might have gone away and that we might have seen that at its PE in 2020 and that seems to be there's been a significant push back against it that know you're shaking your head I'm wrong you think this is no I we could have another Summer of Love like we did in 20 I mean I guess we're kind of sort of having a inversion of the summer of the love right now yeah look I I I think you mix in um uh circles with lots of right-wing people which is fine I'm not criticizing you but I I don't think you you see what I I see and um in education yeah and uh I don't think um yes there are people who are pushing back but there's a whole bunch of people who are not hearing from those people at all uh the progressives they're not hearing from them and um when they do they double down you know you saw the the the the Senate half being attacked and the Winston Churchill and so on I mean all of these well you've seen all of that I mean this isn't you know it's that's not things getting better that's things getting worse um yeah I mean I I see it because I meet my teachers I I hear what you know I I I I I know what they're all struggling with look my teachers come and teach at my school um they're their friends they lose friends you know their boyfriends and girlfriend split up with them um it it this is this is a serious problem that we've got uh in in our society and um I and and we also follow America so what's happening with the Democrats and the divisions there um I've been doing some work with a school in the Bronx helping them um we were looking for a head of school trying to find somebody who didn't immediately at interview talk about everything through the prism of race was so difficult so hard I mean uh everything has been racialized Now in America it it didn't used to be like that in the 1990s it was not like that in America um and we tend to follow America with its Trends and we will especially follow America if white people are told you are a racist if you don't believe in Dei for example um because nobody wants to be called a racist because it's basically the worst thing you can call somebody um it's worse than that by the way because not only is that true but also if you call Cela a Dei vice president or anyone Dei then you're also racist for saying de you're racist if you say it exists and you're racist if you say you don't believe in it so either way you know that's right so we must put her in because we need Dei to to be successful how dare you then say it no we need to pretend that it didn't exist I mean it's just uh I I I don't I don't I I I don't know I don't know well look my very modest attempt now is to Simply get people to understand how important schools are uh and to understand what's happening in our schools and what we need to do in our schools to change things yeah um and this isn't me blaming schools I need to say this you know uh because uh it is so so hard to run a good school to run a good classroom you have to be countercultural how do we address that how do we teach our teachers um the British history that we'd like our kids to learn how do we um make sure that the values that we should be teaching our children our teachers have and that they should want to inculcate those values in our children you know um I think for instance some teachers will see their their role as being much more aligned with an idea of trying to encourage children to reject the establishment that you need to create little revolutionaries because the establishment is evil and we need to overthrow it and we need to teach them how to do that and they see that as being a good person that's what it is to be good um that teaching British history to kids because it's their history and a history they should be proud of but also critical of um that isn't it's not seen in that way and that um we you know the idea of being patriotic um I remember once uh uh one of the writers for the Sunday Times or times he came and um he uh Dominic Lawson and he came and uh he he saw the the kids and heard them singing God saved the king and he said to me Katherine are you deliberately trying to be controversial and uh and for singing the National Anthem yeah that's it and then he also heard the um the poem If You Know by Kipling and again Katherine what are you trying to do you know and uh and iing but it's a beautiful poem that really you know represents our values um I don't know it's particularly woring that the national anthem is considered controversial in this day and AG however Catherine I think we no no no but it is like hardly anyone sings it you go to any school they don't sing the national anthem you might at a few private schools once a term possibly at some Chapel event or something that they would sing the national anthem oh no it's never like it is massively controversial I mean yeah that's very worrying on a positive note and I I think that we have touched on some pessimistic aspects there at the end but positives I've taken away from this conversation is is that you've really hammered the idea of manage multiculturalism through Civic institutions and it's there's a lot of talk about universities how universities but no one thinks so much as about about secondary and primary schools and so that seems to I've really got that message from you in this conversation and some of the other positives I've taken from this is that teaching British history some of these aspects like some things like the national anthem that do do unify us it seems to me and and the values and the values of course right the these are ways which it's not actually that's secular actually there's there's an element of tradition and history to it and that to me gives me hope as the common culture I'd been looking for at the beginning of this conversation when you say secular it's interesting so when you say secular what do you mean without religion right have I got the wrong is that no I'm just wondering because actually it made me think oh well what do I mean when I say secular what do you mean when you say secular I suppose I've always thought of it as not of any one particular religion you know that we have all of our religions there that all of our children are of different religions and races and so on and that we have a multicultural community that we exist under one umbrella where we have shared values and shared rituals and shared knowledge and so on um but that we allow difference as long as it does not upset the whole I I yeah and that um that is something that we actively manage daily that we're thinking about all of the time um at Michaela at Michaela yeah exactly uh because we know how important culture is because it eats strategy for breakfast yeah I love that yeah Katherine thank you so much for your time is there anything you think we miss that you'd like to just anything you think needs clarifying um we sounds like we clarified a couple of your previous podcast interviews on this show so maybe if you'll do it on the next one but well you know and isn't it amazing CU it's so hard these topics are so complex that even with an hour and a half chat I come out thinking oh I should have said this oh I didn't say that Etc you know so yeah thank you for having me because it's such an important topic and I'm so thrilled to be able to talk about it in such detail with you because um I I do think much can be learned from what we do at Michaela and you know people think oh she's just so full of herself no it's just that I have an example of a multicultural Community that's hugely successful and it's because we manage it daily and I think Lots can be learned from it and how can people find you or Michaela you earlier in this conversation you invited people to come visit how would they do that yeah so uh well you could just Google Michaela community school and then you go on our website and you can visit the school there but I'm also on Twitter um you're very on Twitter yes yes Miss Snuffy is my missor Snuffy ffy um as in Miss Snuffleupagus is what I used to be when I wrote a Blog many many many years ago uh because Mr sopus is the big elephant in the room in Sesame Street oh so that's why I'm Miss Snuffy I'm still miss Snuffy somewhat embarrassingly seeing as I'm also meant to be the strictest head mistress in the in the country so um uh but yes that's why uh snuffle up iess that's so cool um well thank you so much and I hope we'll get to talk again I hope so too W thank you thank you for watching the Winston Marshal show if you want to SP the show all you have to do is press subscribe we will see you next time
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